DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: BT on August 04, 2007, 11:48:20 PM
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Barry Bonds just tied Hank Aaron's MLB homerun record.
Because of the steroids accusations will it be forever tarnished with an asterisk, much like Roger Maris with his *61 ?
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Because of the steroids accusations will it be forever tarnished with an asterisk, much like Roger Maris with his *61 ?
Why? Why do the steroids matter?
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Why? Why do the steroids matter?
Because in Baseball they are banned substances, much like using corked bats and spitters and other ways of cheating.
You OK with cheating?
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No, I'm not okay with cheating. I get why things like corked bats are cheating. I get that banned drugs are cheating in that they're banned, and so therefore against the rules. But what I don't get is why they're banned. I guess I don't see steroids as cheating any more than practicing longer or using those fancy motion analysis machines to help with technique. All sorts of things are allowed that are done or used with intention to give individual players an edge in one form or another. So why are drugs off limits?
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Is steroid use about the individual or the team?
About the only time an individual comes into play in baseball is when they stand in the batters box and even then they do things to advance the teams goals, sacrifice flies and bunts come to mind. Hit and runs come to mind.
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Is steroid use about the individual or the team?
Is practicing more than other players about the individual or the team? Is attempting to be a better player about the individual or the team? Shall we ban players attempting self-improvement?
Seems to me the better the individual plays, the better his contribution to the team. Is that not so?
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Seems to me the better the individual plays, the better his contribution to the team. Is that not so?
Depends. Is a well played hit and run better than launching a flyball out at the fence. I would think so.
But we digress from the point. You question why steroids are frowned upon in sports. I question records being broken by cheating.
Apparently you excuse lawbreakers. Which seems to be at odds with your slams against the FBI.
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Apparently you excuse lawbreakers. Which seems to be at odds with your slams against the FBI.
B'HUH? Who broke a law and when did I excuse them? And what does questioning the status of steroid use in sports have to do with my criticism of the FBI for contributing to wrongful imprisonment?
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Steroids are against the law as evidenced by the BALCO investigation which Bonds is a major player.
Bonds allegedly broke the rules (laws) of the game. You seem to think what he did was no more egregious than taking extra batting practice.
and in the meantime you notice i am not bashing MLB for Bonds actions, yet you seem to have no problem bashing the FBI for the actions of Rico and company.
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Bonds will always have that asterisk next to his name, I bet. Too bad.
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All rules have an origin of some kind or another. the anti-steroid rule is the consensus of the powers-that-be in baseball that use of this category of drugs alters the human body -- often in ultimately and even interimly deleterious ways -- such that the player himself, the very self, is not anymore the one responsible for the advances but the drugs themselves are disproportionately responsible. This leads, I suppose, to a deep pseudo-philosophic discussion of what exactly the "self" really is, and, more to the point for this present discussion, the limits that can legitimately be placed on its enhancement. Well, we can rest easy and assured that the "powers that be," in all the wisdom they might muster and the responsibility they might steward, have come to a definite, though interim, by the nature of things, conclusion, that -- hey -- based on what we know now, this is going too far for the would-be superman and the future raisin-ball. And it is their prerogative, duly arrived at. Do we need a rash of spectacles like that wrestler and his family? Show a little sophistication. Carrying a philosophy too far almost invariably leads to an absurdity, as here.
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Steroids are against the law as evidenced by the BALCO investigation which Bonds is a major player.
As I recall, Bonds has not tested positive, nor has he been indicted. I think I'll wait until there is some evidence that Bonds broke the law before I consider him a lawbreaker. If you feel justified in deciding he is guilty even though he has not even been indicted, by all means, go right ahead. And by the way, what law banned steroids?
Bonds allegedly broke the rules (laws) of the game.
Allegedly. So far with no evidence to support the allegation.
You seem to think what he did was no more egregious than taking extra batting practice.
You're so close. If he broke the rules, then by all means, he should be punished. I think there ought to be some proof he broke them, however, before he is punished for doing so. In any case, I do think that using steroids in this sort of situation ought to be (did not say 'is, said 'ought to be') no more egregious than most of the other things players do to gain an edge, like getting in more practice, using hyperbaric chambers to heal faster, that sort of thing. I don't consider that cheating, and I don't see why using steroids should be cheating.
and in the meantime you notice i am not bashing MLB for Bonds actions, yet you seem to have no problem bashing the FBI for the actions of Rico and company.
There are some very important differences. One, whatever Bonds is doing, he is not acting in an official capacity on behalf of the MLB in a manner that imposes some action unfairly or unjustly on other people. Two, this is only baseball! Bonds's actions are not going to result in people going to jail for life. Bonds using or not using steroids is not even remotely comparable to the FBI framing four men for murder and then covering up the evidence for 30 years. It is (to use an apt metaphor) not even in the same ballpark.
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He was a good player before the steroid use. Now, he's almost 2 hat sizes larger and a lot more bulked up.
I loved the Killer B's. But he deserves to have at least a * by his name in the history books.
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Carrying a philosophy too far almost invariably leads to an absurdity, as here.
I agree. Carrying your if-there-is-a-rule-there-must-be-a-good-reason-for-it philosophy to the extreme of suggesting we are not to question the powers that be is quite absurd.
Fishmonger, there is nothing wrong with questioning why something is the way it is. I'd be quite happy for someone to provide me with a reasonable answer. So far the because-it-is-now-shut-up and the it's-just-not-fair-how-dare-you defenses, at least as presented, have been underwhelming and unconvincing.
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Find me a better way of expressing those thoughts -- or their opposites -- and I'll listen, poser.
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Steroids are against the law as evidenced by the BALCO investigation which Bonds is a major player.
As I recall, Bonds has not tested positive, nor has he been indicted. I think I'll wait until there is some evidence that Bonds broke the law before I consider him a lawbreaker. If you feel justified in deciding he is guilty even though he has not even been indicted, by all means, go right ahead. And by the way, what law banned steroids?
Bonds allegedly broke the rules (laws) of the game.
Allegedly. So far with no evidence to support the allegation.
You seem to think what he did was no more egregious than taking extra batting practice.
You're so close. If he broke the rules, then by all means, he should be punished. I think there ought to be some proof he broke them, however, before he is punished for doing so. In any case, I do think that using steroids in this sort of situation ought to be (did not say 'is, said 'ought to be') no more egregious than most of the other things players do to gain an edge, like getting in more practice, using hyperbaric chambers to heal faster, that sort of thing. I don't consider that cheating, and I don't see why using steroids should be cheating.
and in the meantime you notice i am not bashing MLB for Bonds actions, yet you seem to have no problem bashing the FBI for the actions of Rico and company.
There are some very important differences. One, whatever Bonds is doing, he is not acting in an official capacity on behalf of the MBA in a manner that imposes some action unfairly or unjustly on other people. Two, this is only baseball! Bonds's actions are not going to result in people going to jail for life. Bonds using or not using steroids is not even remotely comparable to the FBI framing four men for murder and then covering up the evidence for 30 years. It is (to use an apt metaphor) not even in the same ballpark.
And Michael Vick doesn't love dogfighting either. ;D
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Find me a better way of expressing those thoughts -- or their opposites -- and I'll listen, poser.
You're calling me a poser? Find you a better way to tell me to shut up because the powers that be have spoken? Um, no. I refuse to carry your dead weight for you.
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And Michael Vick doesn't love dogfighting either.
What the frell does Michael Vick have to do with this?
Doesn't anyone out there have a good argument in favor of a steroids ban? Is this really the best you can do?
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And Michael Vick doesn't love dogfighting either.
What the frell does Michael Vick have to do with this?
Doesn't anyone out there have a good argument in favor of a steroids ban? Is this really the best you can do?
You are saying there is no EVIDENCE Barry Bonds took steroids. There is no EVIDENCE Michael Vick was involved in dogfighting either. THAT is the connection.
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And Michael Vick doesn't love dogfighting either.
What the frell does Michael Vick have to do with this?
Doesn't anyone out there have a good argument in favor of a steroids ban? Is this really the best you can do?
The logic behid the steroid ban is that steroids can destroy your life. Ask the hundreds of athletes like Lyle Alzado about what happened to them. Plus, there is a concern about escalation, namely Player A takes them so Player B msut do so as well in order to be as competitive. So, now you have TWO players who are destroying their lives. Aklso, thereis the issue of traditon of the game. In the past, homeruns and such were earned without the use of artificial stimulants.
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One, whatever Bonds is doing, he is not acting in an official capacity on behalf of the MBA in a manner that imposes some action unfairly or unjustly on other people.
Apparently you are just babbling now.
Shouldn't that be MLB?
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You are saying there is no EVIDENCE Barry Bonds took steroids.
There may be evidence, but he hasn't tested positive for steroids, and I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary. If you know of any, please point it out.
There is no EVIDENCE Michael Vick was involved in dogfighting either. THAT is the connection.
Someone thinks they have evidence, because Michael Vick has been formally charged. Barry Bonds has not. End of (tenuous at best) connection.
In any case, I'm not saying Barry Bonds has never used steroids. He may have. He may use them currently. I don't know. I'm saying without some evidence, I'm not going to decide Bonds is guilty. I'm not sure why you seem to think there is something wrong with that.
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Perhaps this link will bring you up to speed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Area_Laboratory_Co-operative
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The logic behid the steroid ban is that steroids can destroy your life.
So have we forbidden athletes to drink alcohol yet? Forbidden sleeping around a lot? Sex with prostitutes maybe?
Plus, there is a concern about escalation, namely Player A takes them so Player B msut do so as well in order to be as competitive. So, now you have TWO players who are destroying their lives.
Why are we so sure they are destroying their lives? Yes, we can all point to examples of people who had problems due in part to steroid use. But how many players have used steroids without ending up as wife beaters? Do we have any stats on this? I'm not taking a hard and inflexible line here. Please, convince me that steroids should be banned. But I need more than anecdotes and cliches.
Aklso, thereis the issue of traditon of the game. In the past, homeruns and such were earned without the use of artificial stimulants.
Really? No one used artificial stimulants? Would you like to buy a bridge? Seriously though, players have access to all sorts of things these days that Babe Ruth never had. Computers and specialized muscle training, gloves designed to help a player catch the ball better, better helmets, et cetera. Shall we bring back the spitball? As I understand it, banning the spitball was controversial. Is it unfair to compare players who never had to try to swing at a spitball with those like Babe Ruth who did? Ty Cobb had a better than .300 batting average and he had to deal with spitballs. Was the tradition of the game been ruined by the elimination of the spitball? I think I read somewhere that many players, at the time, were against banning it.
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Shouldn't that be MLB?
Yes, it should.
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Perhaps this link will bring you up to speed
Read it already. No mention of a Barry Bonds indictment.
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He hasn't been indicted.
He has admitted to using the Clear Cream supplied by Balco, as has Sheffield, who trained at Bonds home during the off season, though both claimed they did not know it was steroid based.
Last I heard Bonds is being investigated for possible perjury in front of the grand jury. Kinda Libby lite.
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The thing about Barry is that prior to his steroids use he was a member of the elite in baseball. He was one of the best of the best. His ego pushed him to steroid use. He knew others were using them and didn't want players of lesser ability to over shadow his greatness. So he took them, and we know the rest.
Steroids don't give you the ability to hit a Roger Clemens fastball or a Randy Johnson slider, but it does give you the ability to hit it farther. Steroids also allow you to recover faster from injury and over work. Bonds benefited from steroids in those two ways.
Barry Bonds will forever be associated with steroids and the record will be tarnished. The record will also be tarnished because Barry Bonds is a prick. My guess is he doesn't make it into the Hall of Fame on the first vote because of that. But he'll make it.
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Steroids also allow you to recover faster from injury and over work.
So do hyperbaric chambers, but those are not banned.
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So do hyperbaric chambers, but those are not banned
Aspirin is allowed. Heroin isn't. Go figure.
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Heroin is against the law. I'm still waiting for the law that banned steroids.
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Babe Ruth Home Runs 714*
Ty Cobb .367 lifetime batting average **
Mickey Mantle
World Series records for home runs (18), RBI (40), runs (42), walks (43), extra-base hits (26), and total bases (123). In his final World Series in 1964 he had three homers and eight RBI and batted .333. ***
IN theroy the players of Americas game should be paragons of American virtue and excellent exampes of clean living for our young to aspire to.
In fact the players are human beings with a many foibles as the rest of the population.
*Alcahol
http://espn.go.com/sportscentury/features/00016451.html
**Mean as a snake
http://ngeorgia.com/people/cobbt.html
***Alcahol
http://www.baseball-statistics.com/HOF/Mantle.html
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The Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990 became law on November 29, 1990, when former President Bush signed the Omnibus Crime Control Bill. The law applies in every Federal court across the country. It places steroids in the same legal class - Schedule III -- as barbiturates, LSD precursors, veterinary tranquilizers like ketamine and narcotic painkillers like Vicodin. Simple possession of any Schedule III substance is a federal offense punishable by up to one year in prison and/or a minimum fine of $1,000. Simple possession by a person with a previous conviction for certain offenses, including any drug or narcotic crimes, must get imprisonment of at least 15 days and up to two years, and a minimum fine of $2,500.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/legalmuscle3.htm
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Thank you.
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I used to love baseball. Bar none it was my favorite sport. Football was OK and I was a much better basketball player than either of the other two. Yet, my heart was in baseball. It was my passion.
I followed the standings, box scores, and player stats with religious devotion throughout spring, summer, and fall. I hated the designated hitter, the day my Cubbies installed lights, and pitchers that took forever.
Baseball was a game then. When Whitey Herzog or Tommy Lasorda were in the dugout, they were using their minds to come up with their next move. Hell, no one hit home runs out of Busch Stadium back in those days. Willie McGee had to get on base, steal second and then be adavanced to third and possibly sacrificed in home some way.
Baseball had a history too. There was the 1975 World Series where the Boston Red Sox fought so hard in game six. Bernie Carbo faced Eastwick and looked like so overmatched before tying the game with an implausible home run. Yet, the Big Red Machine wouldn't be stopped in Game Seven. You had the Yanks of yesteryear with Berra, Mantle, Ford, and the great Casey Stengel.
Possibly the greatest moment in baseball history took place in 1960 when Ralph Terry threw a 1-0 pitch to Mazeroski and the mighty Yanks lost to the lowly Pirates.
I loved baseball. It was painful watching my '84 Cubs implode. But it was a beautiful game then. Ryne Sandberg rewrote history when he led the leagues as a second baseman with 40 homeruns. A relatively skinny young man named Barry Bonds looked like his old man when he stole 30 bases and hit 30 home runs. Having a 4.94 ERA as a lefthanded pitches wasn't considered to be admirable and worth a multi-million dollar contract. It may have resulted in sending you back down to the minors.
But something happened.
A guy named Brady Anderson, who had never hot over 21 dingers in his career, hit 50 (as a lead off hitter!). Amazingly, he didn't lead the league that year, he finished second! Then hitting 50 homeruns in a season became blase. Something only one man had done in all of the 1970's and 1980's (George Foster) would happen twelve times in the 1990's with Sosa hitting sixty twice and Mcgwire hitting sixty once and seventy once. Thus far (2000 to 2006) it has been reached ten times with Sosa reaching sixty once and Bonds reaching seventy.
The names of these superstars of slugging: Brady Anderson, Cecil Fielder, Albert Belle, Greg Vaughn, Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire, Ken Griffey Jr, Alex Rodriguez, Luis Gonzalez, Jim Thome, Andruw Jones, Ryan Howard, David Ortiz.
But it isn't just a few names, every position has gotten power and high average hitting. People like Luis Aparacio wouldn't even make the All-Star game any longer. You'll never have a team like the White Sox of old or even the Twins of 1991. Now you have the Yankees and the Red Sox. People were excited about the Red Sox winning the series, but really - who cared? They made themselves out to be David versus the Goliath Yankees...but in reality they were both Goliaths versus the Liliputian rest of the league.
Say what you will, maybe I'm just saddened by the loss of the old game for this new high-octane version. I'm not claiming to have a highly rigid, logical argument. I still cheer for the Cubs and 2003 was painful, but nothing like 1984. Strategies that involve getting up to the plate and slugging for the fences nearly everytime just doesn't impress me. Paying fortunes for teams that have .300+ batters in all 9 slots (I still hate the DH) that hit 25 to 30+ homeruns at least doesn't impress me either. It is just a shell of the game it once was.
College football has for quite a while replaced baseball as my favorite. I hardly watch games anymore. Occasionally I'll catch the Reds or Cubs and watch for a while. Mostly I just lament a game I used to love.
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Following a discussion with Prince on a topic he passionately cares about (and there are so many: he has not mastered the art of autonomy, so every struggle is a desperate power struggle with oppressive authority) is like explaining to your three-year-old why the sky is blue. I mean, really, should we be wasting space explaining to Prince (not to the three-year-old; that's appropriate) the difference between alcohol and steroids?
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I mean, really, should we be wasting space explaining to Prince (not to the three-year-old; that's appropriate) the difference between alcohol and steroids?
Ohh, give me a break.
Making steroids illegal is about as useful as making alcohol illegal - and probably just as effective.
Claiming that it is "wasting space" and equating Prince to a 3 year old is pretty silly debate technique.
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It's not a "debating technique": it's a gut feeling. Beyond that, at least as far as my argument goes, steroid use combines two evils -- degradation of the body coupled with "extra-human" performance -- which alcohol does not. Indeed, alcohol is a performance depressor, a matter much more within the realm of an individual player's concern (or his team's, in contract negotiations) than it is a matter of the very integrity of the game, that is, altering upward the very unit of play, his very identity as a recognizable and accepted human being. Beyond that, with a fairly flat curve as to what existing training methods are, drug use on the cutting edge -- not to mention the deleterious and unknown effects they can have by reluctant players "forced" to use to compete -- introduces markedly the notion of advantage and cheating.
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Following a discussion with Prince on a topic he passionately cares about (and there are so many: he has not mastered the art of autonomy, so every struggle is a desperate power struggle with oppressive authority) is like explaining to your three-year-old why the sky is blue. I mean, really, should we be wasting space explaining to Prince (not to the three-year-old; that's appropriate) the difference between alcohol and steroids?
I'm being pretty dispassionate about this actually. And since I don't respond to every thread or every issue, you're making up nonsense for the kind of ad hominem attack that I'd expect from a 16-year-old girl.
In any case, I am not asking someone to tell me the difference between alcohol and steroids. I'm asking someone to make a legitimate argument for banning steroid use in baseball, or sports in general. BT was nice enough to point out that the steroids are illegal. Which is the first legitimate reply I've had. That you're unable to produce an argument against steroids beyond your powers-that-be-decided argument is not my fault. And acting like a juvenile protesting that you don't want to answer questions you don't like isn't really a step toward making your case seem more mature.
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Here is why steriods are illegal:
http://www.karendecoster.com/blog/archives/steroids.bmp
This is how I now look after I ingested them over a few years. Of course, I have no testicles, but, hey, one must suffer for the CAUSE!
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Another reason WHY steriods are illegal:
The major side effects from abusing anabolic steroids can include liver tumors and cancer, jaundice (yellowish pigmentation of skin, tissues, and body fluids), fluid retention, high blood pressure, increases in LDL (bad cholesterol), and decreases in HDL (good cholesterol). Other side effects include kidney tumors, severe acne, and trembling. In addition, there are some gender-specific side effects:
For men-shrinking of the testicles, reduced sperm count, infertility, baldness, development of breasts, increased risk for prostate cancer.
For women-growth of facial hair, male-pattern baldness, changes in or cessation of the menstrual cycle, enlargement of the clitoris, deepened voice.
For adolescents-growth halted prematurely through premature skeletal maturation and accelerated puberty changes. This means that adolescents risk remaining short for the remainder of their lives if they take anabolic steroids before the typical adolescent growth spurt.
In addition, people who inject anabolic steroids run the added risk of contracting or transmitting HIV/AIDS or hepatitis, which causes serious damage to the liver.
Scientific research also shows that aggression and other psychiatric side effects may result from abuse of anabolic steroids. Many users report feeling good about themselves while on anabolic steroids, but researchers report that extreme mood swings also can occur, including manic-like symptoms leading to violence. Depression often is seen when the drugs are stopped and may contribute to dependence on anabolic steroids. Researchers report also that users may suffer from paranoid jealousy, extreme irritability, delusions, and impaired judgment stemming from feelings of invincibility.1
Research also indicates that some users might turn to other drugs to alleviate some of the negative effects of anabolic steroids. For example, a study of 227 men admitted in 1999 to a private treatment center for dependence on heroin or other opioids found that 9.3 percent had abused anabolic steroids before trying any other illicit drug. Of these 9.3 percent, 86 percent first used opioids to counteract insomnia and irritability resulting from the anabolic steroids.
http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/Steroids.html
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Another reason WHY steriods are illegal:
The old red herring of "gateway drugs."
I thought better of you.
Are we gonna see a re-write of "Reefer Madness"? Your post sounds like a good start...
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Ami, this is from the NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH, not some crack-pot organization.
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Another reason WHY steriods are illegal:
Most if not all drugs have harmful possible side effects. Even aspirin has a few. So that steroids have such possible side effects is not sufficient to justify, imo, steroids being illegal.
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Ami, this is from the NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH, not some crack-pot organization.
You realize that "Reefer Madness" was produced by the government as well?
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I don't know if they should be legal or not. I really could care less.
But building on what Domer said of the "two evils," Henry Aaron used one drug on his unbelievable path to the Hall of Fame - nicotine. He smoked cigarettes. If you notice, he never once hit 50 homers in a season either.
Steroids were one factor that absolutely ruined baseball, one of the greatest sports (and truly America's game).
People compare this record of Bonds to Maris breaking Ruth's single season mark. Yet, Maris broke Ruth's record within an extra eight games added by MLB. He deserved no grief and no asterisk for what was an amazing achievement.
Bonds doesn't belong in the same breath as Aaron. I know it won't matter and Bonds will get his place in the sun. But for me, it will always be tainted by the awful game baseball has become.
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Wanted to thank you for your post on what baseball had meant to you.
Baseball is a lot like fishing in a way. It is the pastime that counts. Not the players, not the salaries, not who is leading the league or who will make the playoffs.
It is sitting on the porch or driving to grandma's and listening to the game on the radio. Throwing the ball or helping your son straighten out his swing. Beating the grownups in the father son games. Picking your sister for your team because she can hit better than most of the guys in the neighborhood, then sticking her in right field because though she can catch, she still throws like a girl.
It's about shared experiences and it is passed down from generation to generation.
That's is what it is about. It is bigger than Bonds.
Always has been.