Author Topic: Imus  (Read 14505 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: Imus
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2007, 01:39:58 AM »
<<Strange how I never once claimed, or even imnplied the latter [Republicans or conservatives saying terrible things about their opponents] doesn't happen. >>

I think, if you follow the thread (I admit, it's a two-string thread because it involves an MT-sirs dialogue and an MT-plane dialogue) you will see that my point was that both sides insult their opponents in the political arena (which all of your examples were drawn from) and that this is different qualitatively from the Imus insult, which involved a broadcaster insulting a sector of the general public.  It was anything BUT politics as usual, and the girls had NOT volunteered to face that kind of insult by entering a public arena of no-holds-barred political competition.

Whether or not you claimed or implied that Republicans or conservatives never smeared their opponents just wasn't an issue.  I didn't knowingly make it an issue, and I don't see where that became an issue.  Frankly, I don't see the point of your objection.

Plane

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Re: Imus
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2007, 01:47:39 AM »
<<Strange how I never once claimed, or even imnplied the latter [Republicans or conservatives saying terrible things about their opponents] doesn't happen. >>

I think, if you follow the thread (I admit, it's a two-string thread because it involves an MT-sirs dialogue and an MT-plane dialogue) you will see that my point was that both sides insult their opponents in the political arena (which all of your examples were drawn from) and that this is different qualitatively from the Imus insult, which involved a broadcaster insulting a sector of the general public.  It was anything BUT politics as usual, and the girls had NOT volunteered to face that kind of insult by entering a public arena of no-holds-barred political competition.

Whether or not you claimed or implied that Republicans or conservatives never smeared their opponents just wasn't an issue.  I didn't knowingly make it an issue, and I don't see where that became an issue.  Frankly, I don't see the point of your objection.



I think we could agree that there is a diffrence beteen insulting a political rival and insulting someone who is not asking for it .


Michael Tee

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Re: Imus
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2007, 01:48:31 AM »
<<I can't require you to face facts  , but why did you bring this up?>>

I mentioned it in passing.  The point of departure was sirs' examples of "left-wingers" being equally as bad as Imus in their insults.  I pointed out that all his examples were from the political arena.  I said that right-wingers were equally guilty.  Either because I was challenged on that last comment, or maybe purely voluntarily, I then gave some examples of right-wing verbal abuse of their opponents.  One of the latter examples was the allegations of criminality (murder) that graced the abortion debates.  You then stepped up to the plate to turn my example (which was meant for the Imus debate) into the main event, a debate in its own right, by asking why you shouldn't call pro-lifers murderers, and i said (still focused on the Imus debate) that I really didn't give a shit what you called them, because you had actually proved the point I was trying to make.

So instead of asking why I brought this up, maybe you should have asked why did you yourself focus on this example - - when it was only a passing example, of which I gave more than one, meant to move along the Imus debate.

Michael Tee

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Re: Imus
« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2007, 01:54:26 AM »
<<I think we could agree that there is a diffrence beteen insulting a political rival and insulting someone who is not asking for it .>>

Well, yeah.  I think that's where most of the outrage comes from.  These kids were just studying hard and playing ball.  I'm the father of two grown daughters myself.  That would have had to hurt.  Where does this asshole get off? 

Universe Prince

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Re: Imus
« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2007, 02:02:26 AM »
I haven't seen this much barking since the cable guy tried to get into our backyard. Sheesh.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Michael Tee

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Re: Imus
« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2007, 02:10:09 AM »
<<I haven't seen this much barking since the cable guy tried to get into our backyard. Sheesh.>>

It's called empathy.  Visit our planet a little more often.  Get used to it.

sirs

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Re: Imus
« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2007, 02:14:23 AM »
my point was that both sides insult their opponents in the political arena

Which no one I'm aware of has denied.  So why you brought it up is beyond me.  The point I was making was in demonstrating how you consistently, and still are I might add, finding ways to rationalize and give a pass to leftist commentators, celebs, & pundits for their blatantly racist remarks & cartoons, when they happen to be aimed at the right, but have no problem falling all over yourself in literally proclaiming all the GOP as one big racist organization.  Especially any republican having to do with the south or Bush


Whether or not you claimed or implied that Republicans or conservatives never smeared their opponents just wasn't an issue.  I didn't knowingly make it an issue, and I don't see where that became an issue.

I don't either, and yet you still brought it up.  I wonder why, given your complete absence of examples implying that it doesn't happen
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Lanya

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Re: Imus
« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2007, 02:20:06 AM »
   
My 16-year-old son and I were listening to the athletes speak at their news conference. 
He didn't get why Imus said what he said. What made him say it? 
I told him that as far as I could figure out, if women aren't in their proper role as smiling, lipsticked nicely dressed submissive helpmeets, they're fair game.  These girls were playing a very good game of basketball, were athletic in build, not submissive, competetive, not at all like the picture-perfect Donna Reed type that would be beyond reproach. 
So they get called those names on national TV.  It's abuse, verbal abuse, as far as I can tell elicited by their lack of conformity to what's considered the norm for female looks and behavior.

So, is it even remotely possible to add any more stereotypes in a post?

Sure. 
Planned Parenthood is America’s most trusted provider of reproductive health care.

sirs

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Re: Imus
« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2007, 02:41:54 AM »
Here's a few more toons to highlight the double standard I was alluding to earlier (which for some, the disclaimer must be made that this is in no way defending what Imus said)





"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Universe Prince

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Re: Imus
« Reply #54 on: April 11, 2007, 02:47:39 AM »

It's called empathy.  Visit our planet a little more often.  Get used to it.


I have serious doubts that the bickering going on between you and Sirs springs from empathy. Though I like the "Visit our planet" bit. That was cute. Maybe the people shocked, shocked! that Don Imus said something offensive and insulting should consider visiting our planet a little more often. Yeah, what he said was insulting and really, really stupid, but I can't believe this is even a little bit newsworthy.

"This just in... an offensive and idiotic shock jock said something offensive, idiotic and shocking on the air today... we'll have the full story for you tonight at eleven. Coming up is our in-depth and investigative report on the surprising revelation that Pope Benedict XVI is really a Catholic. But first here on Channel X News, where we cover the stories that matter to you, a report on whether bears actually shit in the woods..."
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

sirs

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Re: Imus
« Reply #55 on: April 11, 2007, 03:23:09 AM »
Maybe the people shocked, shocked! that Don Imus said something offensive and insulting should consider visiting our planet a little more often. Yeah, what he said was insulting and really, really stupid, but I can't believe this is even a little bit newsworthy.

"This just in... an offensive and idiotic shock jock said something offensive, idiotic and shocking on the air today... we'll have the full story for you tonight at eleven...."


And don't forget to run it as the top news story for.....oh a week, at least
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Imus
« Reply #56 on: April 11, 2007, 08:57:13 AM »
<<Which no one I'm aware of has denied.  So why you brought it up [that both sides almost routinely vilify their political opponents] is beyond me. >>

That's OK.  There are a lot of things, sirs, which seem to be beyond you.  Let me help you, then.  I brought it up because you seemed to be totally unaware of the phenomenon.  You seemed to be totally unaware of the phenomenon because you used several rather clear and unmistakeable examples of it as "proof" that "left-wingers" had spewed out the same kind of racist garbage as Don Imus, and in an (apparently hopeless) attempt to show you the difference, felt that you might understand the difference more easily if you first recognized your examples for what they were.  (The next step being, having recognized your own examples for what they were, you might more clearly see how Imus' contribution to the art of character assassination differed from them.)  That's why I brought it up.  And to show the non-partisan nature of my remark, I took extra pains to show that not only left-wingers but also right-wingers indulged in this sort of thing.  Maybe you already knew that.  Maybe you didn't.  It was a gratuitous aside, nothing to do with the main thrust of my argument, just a little precaution to ensure that you or some other fascist lunatic would not provoke a side-issue conflict over which side does it more.

<<The point I was making was in demonstrating how you consistently, and still are I might add, finding ways to rationalize and give a pass to leftist commentators, celebs, & pundits for their blatantly racist remarks & cartoons, when they happen to be aimed at the right, but have no problem falling all over yourself in literally proclaiming all the GOP as one big racist organization.  Especially any republican having to do with the south or Bush>>

Bush is a lying, torturing, murdering, cowardly and incompetent bastard, pure and simple.  There are very few cartoons that could go over the line in describing Bush.  There IS no line.  This guy is a major war criminal responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of human beings and in a just world would be on trial for his life.  Republicans "having to do with the South" are mostly closet (and in the cases of Trent Lott, Senator Macacawitz and others, not even closet) racists or apologists and enablers for racists, and I congratulate any cartoonists who have the balls to take them on.  If you DON'T think the GOP (in the South) is one big racist organization, read up on Goldwater's Southern Strategy and how it has played out from the Sixties till the present day.  (Reservation:  check out BT's point that the focus of the GOP's southern strategy now is more yuppie-centred - - I haven't read up on it but I'd want to know how many of those "new southerners" are actually white-flight emigres from the north, i.e., different kinds of racists than the old south produced, but racists none the less.) 

Anyway I don't attack cartoonists for promoting my own view of things, if that's what you mean, and I don't think you are any different in that respect either.  But the difference is that I don't support misogyny or racism, so I don't have to defend racist or misogynist cartoonists, and you do.


Michael Tee

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Re: Imus
« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2007, 09:03:53 AM »
<<Here's a few more toons to highlight the double standard I was alluding to earlier (which for some, the disclaimer must be made that this is in no way defending what Imus said)>>

Thanks.  The first one was actually funny, as well as being a good example of non-demeaning caricature (unlike the offensive and insulting Rosie-the-Blob cartoon.)

The other two were inoffensive, but I didn't really see the relevance of them.  Rap and hip-hop use the language of the streets and so what?  Imus is neither a rapper nor a hip-hopper.  Besides which, the inference seemed to be that most of the anger focused on Imus was coming from rap and hip-hop sources, which is bullshit.  NONE of the talking heads that I've seen taking a verbal swing at the guy were from anything even close to rap or hip-hop.

Michael Tee

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Re: Imus
« Reply #58 on: April 11, 2007, 09:20:13 AM »
<<I have serious doubts that the bickering going on between you and Sirs springs from empathy. >>

Of course not, doctor.  Actually it springs from deep-seated infantile conflicts I had with my mother, and in sirs' case from a tragic and traumatic fire that he witnessed when he was still in diapers.   How fortunate we are to have your phenomenal insight into the human psyche at our disposal.  How COULD one feel any empathy for those nappy-headed hos and their parents anyway?  That would make absolutely no sense at all.

<<Yeah, what he said was insulting and really, really stupid, but I can't believe this is even a little bit newsworthy. >>

Uhh, let me clue you in.  The issue is no longer what the guy said.  His JOB is on the line, get it?  The issue is how, and whether, he can save his ass.  Who he's gonna crawl to for help, what good is any of it gonna do for him.  Who's gonna help him, who's gonna not.  And THAT'S newsworthy, (a) because the great American public loves dramas of sin and redemption, guys falling into a self-dug pit and then against all odds, digging themselves out of it and (b) because the outcome will say something about core American values, at least at the corporate level, the megabucks that they can make out of a mouth like Imus' versus the hurt and insult that will be felt in millions of low-rent (and a few high-rent) homes if the racist prick doesn't get the axe.  Get it now?  THAT'S what's newsworthy.

Michael Tee

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Re: Imus
« Reply #59 on: April 11, 2007, 09:21:58 AM »
<<And don't forget to run it as the top news story for.....oh a week, at least>>

What do you care how long it runs?  It's taking the focus off your "President's" Iraq disaster, isn't it?