Israel Moves on From Muslim Turkey to new stategic partner Greece.

[Plane]

Where do you (plane) get the idea of "hundreds of club-wielding murderers" from?

Literal truth.

Where are any murderers not human beings precious in the sight of God?

They came prepared to do as they did and for the sake of a publicity stunt they killed themselves with IDF soldiers.

Why were there hundreds of them , why were there clubs? Why were there knives?

If you want to refine the accusation to attempted murder , I would go along with that , but they certainly came prepared to ambush, to kill and die, so no less.

Although you will not find a single photo of the murdered Turkish aid workers anywhere in the corrupt, Zio-Nazi-controlled American MSM, their photos and two-line bios can be found here:

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/

including the photo of a 19-year-old American citizen,  a student in Turkey who planned one day to be a doctor, shot at close range four times in the head and once in the chest.  

The others were aid workers and humanitarians with the Turkish relief organization IHH who had participated in other relief operations in Africa and elsewhere.   They were university graduates, engineers, teachers, etc.

Look at the pictures.  Read the two-line biographies.  I have only one question for you:

Who did they murder?   You call them club-wielding murderers, so I would just like to know, who exactly have they murdered?

[Plane]

Where do you (plane) get the idea of "hundreds of club-wielding murderers" from?

Literal truth.

I read the thumbnail bios.
Then I looked one page down on that same page you provided.

To be reasonable I would subtract the wrenches , hammers and kitchen knives of the amount usually found on a ship.

Still plenty there to show this is preparation for exactly what happened .

Why were there hundreds?
Why did they bring knives to a gun fight?
Why clubs?
Do you think that any reasonable person would think that the IDF members were supposed to quietly allow themselves to be beaten to death?

This is properly defined as a stunt, even if the stunters died by their own choice.

[Michael Tee]

plane, I'm not going to waste my time with this. 

I'll concede the following points you make:

1.  There were a lot of people on board whose presence was purely symbolic, i.e., not necessary to operate the ship, unload or distribute its cargo.

2.  Those people were there solely to make a political point.

3.  Those people knew there was a good chance that they would be confronted by armed force.

4.  Those people knew that they could be killed in such a confrontation.

At this point, I don't see any difference at all between those people and the marchers at Selma Alabama or the participants in Gandhi's march to the sea for salt.  They don't deserve to die and anyone who kills them is a murderer.

The photos of "weapons" were basically photos of anything you would find on a ship of that size.  Kitchen knives.  Monkey wrenches.  Spanners.  Ship's railings.  Pliers.

I will further concede that some passengers grabbed some of the ship's equipment and used them as improvised weapons.  Against people who boarded their ship in international waters without the captain's permission.  To repel boarders, in classical nautical parlance.

As to whether the Israelis fired first before the clubs (ship's railings, actually)  came out or whether the sequence was (1) a rapelling descent then (2) a clubbing of the commandos by the passengers  and then (3) the shooting:  I do not really know.  The passengers say that the Israelis shot first, then the descending commandos were attacked with pieces of ship's railing, then the Israelis fired into the passengers.  OTOH, the body of the 19-year-old boy had been shot four times in the head and once in the chest, all at close range, which doesn't match the story of the Jews shooting from the helicopter.  No word on the other bodies that I could find.

Does it really matter?  Who really initiated the violence, the Israelis who boarded the ship on the high seas without the captain's permission, or the passengers who tried to beat off the boarders with "clubs" (actually pieces of ship's railing?)

And I'll return to my first question, which I don't believe you ever seriously addressed:  if the murdered aid workers were, as you called them,  "murderers," then who exactly was it that they murdered?

[Plane]

Those are not peices of ships railing.

Those are pick handles .


I do not care why I have a gun and you don't , you are not wise to hit me with a club.

You are certainly not a freedom riders equal if you come to the peace rally armed for a rumble.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I like the clever touch of laying it out on a Turkish flag. Even the pruning shears.Pruning shears against actual guns.

Now we need to see the weapons that the Israelis had, spread out on an Israeli flag.

You should be bright enough to recognize propaganda when you see it, really.

Again, the Israelis acted needlessly and stupidly, and they lost this time, because they no longer can decide everything that gets into Gaza as they once did.

[Michael Tee]

<<Those are not peices of ships railing.

<<Those are pick handles .>>

OK, let's say they are pick handles.  Do you have any proof they were on the ship when the Israelis boarded it?  How do you know the Israelis didn't just put them there after they gained control of the ship, maybe even after they docked it?


<<I do not care why I have a gun and you don't , you are not wise to hit me with a club.>>

Well, it's always wise to bend over quietly if a bigger stronger man wants to fuck you in the ass, but is a lack of that kind of submissive wisdom deserving of death?  Is there no blame at all for the guy who wanted to fuck you in the ass and killed you for not submitting peacefully? 

When a ship is boarded on the high seas without the captain's permission, do any resisting passengers deserve to die for their "unwise" resistance?

<<You are certainly not a freedom riders equal if you come to the peace rally armed for a rumble.>>

Probably not, but does that give the vigilantes the right to kill you?

Again, who initiated the violence of that episode, those who boarded the ship on the high seas without the permission of the captain or those who (perhaps "unwisely") resisted them?

[Plane]

<<Those are not peices of ships railing.

<<Those are pick handles .>>

OK, let's say they are pick handles.  Do you have any proof they were on the ship when the Israelis boarded it?  How do you know the Israelis didn't just put them there after they gained control of the ship, maybe even after they docked it?

Why lie about the ship railing? They were captured on film useing something like this were they nerf?

<<I do not care why I have a gun and you don't , you are not wise to hit me with a club.>>

Well, it's always wise to bend over quietly if a bigger stronger man wants to fuck you in the ass, but is a lack of that kind of submissive wisdom deserving of death?  Is there no blame at all for the guy who wanted to fuck you in the ass and killed you for not submitting peacefully? 

I don't think that any sort of sex was planned by the IDF , I think that the ship had four HUNDRED murdurous idiots on bourd armed with knives and clubs in preparation for a gun fight.

Publicity stunt- Muslim myrter style

When a ship is boarded on the high seas without the captain's permission, do any resisting passengers deserve to die for their "unwise" resistance?

<<You are certainly not a freedom riders equal if you come to the peace rally armed for a rumble.>>

Probably not, but does that give the vigilantes the right to kill you?

Once you are killing me my right to kill you appears as if by majic , what lead up to that moment becomes so much less relivant that the complete answer to your question is -Yes.

Again, who initiated the violence of that episode, those who boarded the ship on the high seas without the permission of the captain or those who (perhaps "unwisely") resisted them?

The Turks and other poorly armed nautical rioters are entirely at fault.

Perhaps unwisely? Wherefrom perhaps?

Was the blockade any surprise?

Was being borded after the ship crossed the blockade any surprise?

Is getting shot by a gunman you have just stabbed or clubbed a surprise?

[Michael Tee]

<<Why lie about the ship railing? They were captured on film useing something like this were they nerf?>>

Well, obviously a pickaxe handle is more incriminating than a ship's railing.  A ship's railing is an improvised weapon, it shows the passengers had no real plans for a violent confrontation.  Pick handles I don't think belong on a ship (you'd know better than I) so the laying in of a supply of pick handles would indicate planning by some passengers for a violent confrontation.  That's why I think the Israelis are lying about it and that's why I think they brought the pick handles on board after they secured the ship.

As far as the rest of your post is concerned, I think that the Israelis were illegally boarding the ship without the captain's permission on the high seas and the passengers had every right to resist.  The violence was initiated by the illegal boarding, the Israelis can no more justify the murders by the passengers' legitimate resistance than a robber or rapist can justify killing his victim because he or she resisted.  The fault for the crimes committed in resistance to an unlawful action lies with the criminal who initiated the violence, not with the victim who puts up resistance, wisely or unwisely.

Your post is pure nonsense, an attempt to justify what is an obvious crime committed during a blatant act of piracy.

[Plane]

<<Why lie about the ship railing? They were captured on film useing something like this were they nerf?>>

Well, obviously a pickaxe handle is more incriminating than a ship's railing.  A ship's railing is an improvised weapon, it shows the passengers had no real plans for a violent confrontation.  Pick handles I don't think belong on a ship (you'd know better than I) so the laying in of a supply of pick handles would indicate planning by some passengers for a violent confrontation.  That's why I think the Israelis are lying about it and that's why I think they brought the pick handles on board after they secured the ship.

As far as the rest of your post is concerned, I think that the Israelis were illegally boarding the ship without the captain's permission on the high seas and the passengers had every right to resist.  The violence was initiated by the illegal boarding, the Israelis can no more justify the murders by the passengers' legitimate resistance than a robber or rapist can justify killing his victim because he or she resisted.  The fault for the crimes committed in resistance to an unlawful action lies with the criminal who initiated the violence, not with the victim who puts up resistance, wisely or unwisely.

Your post is pure nonsense, an attempt to justify what is an obvious crime committed during a blatant act of piracy.

That is the diffrence between murder and manslauter.

Why doesn't the IDF have the right to board a ship in Isreli waters?

Our Coast guard boards ships every day , not always willing , when needfull cutters train a five inch gun onto the recalcitrant , or even call the USN for help.

The Turkish ship had the option for complyance and peacefully objecting , the supplys would have arrived in Gaza all the sooner.

They wanted Turkish deaths they comitted suicide by cop , the idea is disgusting but how can it be denyed?

They are on film smacking the IDF with all sorts of stick, knife and etc...

They intended to fight , they intended to loose and they have credibility only where the audience is already convinced.

[Michael Tee]

<<Why doesn't the IDF have the right to board a ship in Isreli waters?>>

They did not board the ship in Israeli waters.  It was boarded on the high seas.

<<Our Coast guard boards ships every day , not always willing , when needfull cutters train a five inch gun onto the recalcitrant , or even call the USN for help.>>

When was the last time your Coast Guard murdered nine passengers?  When was the last time they boarded a ship without the captain's permission on the high seas?

<<The Turkish ship had the option for complyance and peacefully objecting , the supplys would have arrived in Gaza all the sooner.>>

Would you have complied with an order to stand by for boarding by a foreign ship in international waters or would you have resisted?

<<They wanted Turkish deaths they comitted suicide by cop , the idea is disgusting but how can it be denyed?>>

How can it be proven is the real question.  How do you know they wanted to be murdered?  If they were being boarded and had a right to resist that does not mean they wanted to be killed any more than a woman resisting a rapist wants to be killed.  Your "reasoning" is just sick.  It's crazy.  People who have a right to resist and choose to fight back do NOT want to be killed and do not expect to be killed.

<<They are on film smacking the IDF with all sorts of stick, knife and etc...>>

There is no film of anyone attacking IDF with a knife.  There is one-minute film of rappelling commandos being beaten with pieces torn off from the ship's railings and the passengers say the Israelis were shooting from the helicopers before they began rappelling onto the deck.  But in any event, the passengers were well within their rights beating off a boarding party boarding them on the high seas without the captain's permission to board.  Agree or disagree with that?

<<They intended to fight, they intended to loose . . .>>

How are they any different than a woman fighting off a much bigger and stronger rapist?  She intends to fight and at that point she doesn't see how she can win, but she's standing up for herself and her rights - - she loses the fight and she's dead.  Can the killer use your argument, "She intended to fight, she intended to lose, so it's her fault and not mine?"

The fault is with the criminal, not with the victim who offers resistance.  Your arguments are preposterous.

<< . . . and they have credibility only where the audience is already convinced.>>

Really?  Let's talk about credibility.  The Israelis videotaped the whole episode and released only one or two minutes of their tape.  The passengers too recorded everything - - on camcorders, cellphones, etc.   All of which were confiscated by the Israelis, none of which (except for a very few successfully hidden exceptions) were ever seen again.  Who has more credibility?  The ones who confiscate all of the evidence they can find and hide 99% of it, or the ones whose records were confiscated and hidden?

[Plane]

<< . . . and they have credibility only where the audience is already convinced.>>

Really?  Let's talk about credibility.  The Israelis videotaped the whole episode and released only one or two minutes of their tape.  The passengers too recorded everything - - on camcorders, cellphones, etc.   All of which were confiscated by the Israelis, none of which (except for a very few successfully hidden exceptions) were ever seen again.  Who has more credibility?  The ones who confiscate all of the evidence they can find and hide 99% of it, or the ones whose records were confiscated and hidden?

True, that is the same reason I don't beleive anything positive about Staln , Mao or Fidel Castro , they had too much edit.

But I don't see the comparison to rape.

Complience would not have caused any harm of any sort , the embargo was no secret and boarding ships to enforce an embargo is COMMONPLACE!

It is a dayly occurance on any seacoast prone to smuggling.

I have a hint for you , do not attack an RCMP officer , even with a bit of handrail on a boat of your own , some time before you manage to kill him he might get off a shot.

[Plane]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulai_Ahmed_er_Raisuni

[Xavier_Onassis]

I am unsure what the Spanish Morocco wars have to do with this. I cannot see where we can regard opposition by Moroccans to the conquest of their country as anything but justified resistance, but there were complications like this guy you mention, who allied himself with the Spaniards.

As I said before, the main thing about the Israelis boarding this ship on the high seas was that it was an unjust move, and far more important, a very, very stupid one. The repercussions of this were that now the Egyptians have the power to let any damned thing cross into Gaza that they wish. The Americans, who previously pressured the Egyptians to bow to Israeli wishes, have obviously decided not to continue pressuring the Egyptians. If you want to regard this as you would a sporting event, I see no other way to evaluate it than

Score:
Israel 0
Turks 1

I predict that there will be no further commandos rappelling down ropes onto ships on the high seas.

[Michael Tee]

You don't see the comparison to rape?  How the hell can you not see it?

Man demands sex, woman resists demand, man kills woman.  She's to blame because she tried to offer resistance to a much more powerful individual making an illegal demand?  Had she given the guy sex, she'd be no worse off the morning after (let's assume the rapist was gonna use a condom) - - so according to you, SHE'S the one at fault getting herself killed.  She wanted suicide by rapist.

That's exactly the argument you make against the Turkish passengers killed resisting an illegal boarding party.  They are the ones at fault for resisting.  Had they not resisted, NBD.  The goods aboard would have reached Gaza anyway.  Or not.  Who knows WTF the Israelis would have done with the cargo had there been no scandalous murders to complicate the situation?

Your argument is classic blame-the-victim.  I don't know how this can be advanced with a straight face.  It is ridiculous.

[Christians4LessGvt]

I like the clever touch of laying it out on a Turkish flag. Even the pruning shears.Pruning shears against actual guns.

But can you answer Plane's question? Could one expect the IDF commandos to allow themselves to
be beaten to death with hammers/knives/clubs so you would not be able to make the ridiculous
claim that it was "pruning shears against actual guns"? Should the IDF soldiers allowed themselves
to be stabbed with pruning shears? If you were armed and a guys were running at you with pruning
shears, clubs, and knives with obvious bad intentions you would not fire because you have a superior
weapon and woud consider it "unfair"?