Who Would Jesus Vote For?

[Plane]

<<We have no idea what the world would have gone thru without Jesus , but "Peace on Earth " seems to have been secondary to his mission.>>

Well, all I know is that the predictions of a Messiah to come included the notion that his coming would end strife and resistance to God on earth.  Whether or not that was his primary mission or not, that was the prediction.  Messiah arrival = peace on earth.  Jesus' arrival was NOT followed by peace on earth.  Ergo Jesus was not the Messiah.  Q.E.D.

<<If a lot more of us were better at following Jesus advice to love our neighbor , more peace might result.>>

And if pigs had wings they could fly.  But the fact is, we AREN'T better at loving our neighbour, which was the reason for a Messiah to come in the first place.  If we were already loving our neighbours everywhere, what the hell would be the use of a Messiah?  Especially for the Jews, whose souls were already saved when they entered into the Covenant, as long as they didn't breach it, e.g., by worship of false gods, e.g., Jesus.

<<But his main mission was saving your soul ,which requires your co operation.>>

see above.  Mine's already saved.  I kept the Covenant, or at least the essential parts of it.  Worshiping  Jesus would be the surest way to lose it that I can think of.  One single act of purporting to recognize Jesus as a god and that would be all it takes.  God, if there is one, wouldn't fuck around with someone who swears to a covenant, seals it in blood and then violates it by worshiping a mortal man as a god.  That would be the end of the road for Tee and maybe even Tee's progeny.  Because how could they follow the Biblical injunction "Honour thy father" if the father was an apostate?  They'd have to be kicked out of the Covenant too.  Become "animals without souls" like their father.  Who needs it?  Better to just stay away from all that Jesus bullshit and leave it to the people who have no Covenant to break.

How are you keeping the covenant with a God you can't really acknoledge?

Seems as if that would make Commandments one and two impossible.

Jesus and God aren't seaparated that way , if Abraham can speak to a man about the fate of Sodom and that is God , then Jesus can be the son of God and be God himself also in the same sort of manifestation.
But even more , Jesus is the only begotten son of God and in the line of David , the first to fulfill the prophacys of his appearance and the only one to ful fill them all.


I don't know which prophecies you refer to as predicting that the Messiah would create a peacefull era at his appearance, we often discuss the Revelitions of John where such a thing is predicted , but that is after a coupple of things that havent happened yet and is much younger than the propacys you must be refering to.

[Michael Tee]

<<How are you keeping the covenant with a God you can't really acknoledge?>>

I'm being honest with Him and saying I don't have proof of his existence.  I'm not dishonouring him by worshiping an obviously fake god like Jesus.  "Jealous God" means a God that doesn't want you to worship any OTHER "god," not a God who demands absolute belief.  Like a jealous wife - - say you don't love a jealous wife, OK, it's a loveless marriage, but jealousy does not come into play.  Jealousy is only excited when you start courting another woman.  THEN you see the fireworks start to fly.  I don't think in the Jewish religion that doubt is the big deal the Christians make of it.  We're not expected to believe blindly, it's OK to have doubts, it's OK to use our brains and use them independently.

<<Jesus and God aren't seaparated that way , if Abraham can speak to a man about the fate of Sodom and that is God , then Jesus can be the son of God and be God himself also in the same sort of manifestation.>>

You're just talking nonsense.  God is God and everything else is not God.  Including Jesus.

<<But even more , Jesus is the only begotten son of God and in the line of David , the first to fulfill the prophacys of his appearance and the only one to ful fill them all.>>

And if you were Jewish, that would be blasphemy.


<<I don't know which prophecies you refer to as predicting that the Messiah would create a peacefull era at his appearance, we often discuss the Revelitions of John where such a thing is predicted , but that is after a coupple of things that havent happened yet and is much younger than the propacys you must be refering to.>>

Well as I said I don't know all that much about the religion but I did go to Sunday school and I know what the Messiah is - - whether he's defined in the Old Testament or some other religious text - - and I know that the Messiah is supposed to usher in an epoch of peace and universal acknowledgment of the supremacy of God, which is obviously why Jesus couldn't possibly by any stretch of the imagination be the Messiah.

[Universe Prince]

What is the context, then?

It comes at the end of a parable. It's a version of the parable of the talents, though Luke uses the word minas rather than talents. Luke 19:11-27. Jesus says the words, but they are the words of a character in the parable.

[Amianthus]

Well as I said I don't know all that much about the religion but I did go to Sunday school and I know what the Messiah is - - whether he's defined in the Old Testament or some other religious text - - and I know that the Messiah is supposed to usher in an epoch of peace and universal acknowledgment of the supremacy of God, which is obviously why Jesus couldn't possibly by any stretch of the imagination be the Messiah.

He's supposed to usher in that era of peace after an era of war and strife. Also, he's supposed to raise up all the dead, so Earth is gonna be pretty crowded...

[Xavier_Onassis]

It comes at the end of a parable. It's a version of the parable of the talents, though Luke uses the word minas rather than talents. Luke 19:11-27. Jesus says the words, but they are the words of a character in the parable.


=================================================
So the character in the parable is the bad guy in the parable?

'minas' is not an English word. I assume that it refers to a monetary unit rather than a prodigious ability.


Jesus was described as saying a number of things that seem quite contradictory. It is possible that they were recorded incorrectly or invented by the rather vaguely identified authors of the four books. It is basically recorded hearsay, possibly decades after the events described.

It is rather like you or I would write a history of Jim Jones today, 20 years or so after the events, with no ability to Google the facts, and without having seen the various films and documentaries. It might be partially correct, but certainly not up to the standards one might assume would be needed for the One True Religion.

 In a US court of law, the entire New Testament would be unacceptable as evidence of anything, which I find ironic and amusing, since people routinely swear on said book of mostly hearsay to indicate their truthfulness.

[Universe Prince]

So the character in the parable is the bad guy in the parable?

Heh. I think you have to decide that for yourself.

'minas' is not an English word. I assume that it refers to a monetary unit rather than a prodigious ability.

In the parable of the talents, the word talent is also a monetary unit.

Jesus was described as saying a number of things that seem quite contradictory.

Indeed. To a society that favors the quick and simple over the substantive and profound, I am sure much of what Jesus said seems contradictory. Of course, that He is frequently beyond our expectations and some times scandalously so is a lesson too few people learn.

[Universe Prince]

You're just talking nonsense.  God is God and everything else is not God.  Including Jesus.

Unless, of course, Jesus is God.

[sirs]

Precisely

[Michael Tee]

<<He's supposed to usher in that era of peace after an era of war and strife. Also, he's supposed to raise up all the dead, so Earth is gonna be pretty crowded...>>

Where do you get that stuff from?  Is there some verse in the Bible that can be cited, as for example Luke 2:15 or however that stuff is written up?  So that an interested reader can zero right in on it?  I have a King James Bible somewhere around the house so if anyone knows any Old Testament citations that allegedly foresee the coming of the Messiah, I'd be happy to look them up.

For the record, I learned about Messiah in our Sunday School and there was none of this bullshit about him doing his good stuff "after an era of war and strife."  We had already been BORN into an era of war and strife and we sure as hell didn't need any Messiah to bring us any more of it.  Bin there dun that.  The Messiah was gonna bring in some good times.  Period.

[Michael Tee]

MT  <<You're just talking nonsense.  God is God and everything else is not God.  Including Jesus.>>


Prince:  <<Unless, of course, Jesus is God.>>

Yeah well that's pretty much ruled out by the actual language: 
2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; 3 Do not have any other gods before me. (Exodus) or 6 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;7 you shall have no other gods before me. (Deuteronomy) 

Both of the above from Wikipedia "Ten Commandments"

Now admittedly, not being a Biblical scholar and all, I still venture to say that Jesus was not the God who brought the Jews out of Egypt, or if he was, he was pretty modest about the whole thing and let God take all the credit.  Nevertheless, I really don't know of any Bible scholar who claims that Jesus led the Jews out of Egypt or had anything to do with it.

It seems pretty straightforward to me.  Of course if any Jew wants to take it upon himself to reinterpret those seemingly clear and unambiguous words by adding to them, on his own initiative, "except of course my son Jesus" or "except of course my daughter the Cretan Snake Goddess," he is free to do so.  I just would not want to be in his shoes when God asks him, "WTF is wrong with you?  Did I not make Myself perfectly clear in My commandments?  What part of "no other gods" did you not understand?"

[Amianthus]

For the record, I learned about Messiah in our Sunday School and there was none of this bullshit about him doing his good stuff "after an era of war and strife."

My corpses shall rise; awaken and sing, you who dwell in the dust, for a dew of lights is your dew, and [to the] earth You shall cast the slackers. (Yeshayahu 26:19).

So shall he cast down many nations. (Yeshayahu 52:15). And the nations will know that for their iniquity the House of Israel was exiled, because they betrayed Me, and I hid My face from them, and I delivered them into the hands of their adversaries, and they all fell by the sword. (Yechezkel 39:23). There are a few in Tzefaniah as well, chapter 3, I believe.

[Christians4LessGvt]

"not being a Biblical scholar"

michael i wouldn't really worry about it because even bible scholars don't always agree

thats why all these bozos that get so caught up in dogma are quite amusing to me

ya know the "well my interpretation is the "right one" and everybody else can go to hell" (literally)

yeah sure 

[Universe Prince]

Yeah well that's pretty much ruled out by the actual language: 
2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; 3 Do not have any other gods before me. (Exodus) or 6 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;7 you shall have no other gods before me. (Deuteronomy)

I don't see how that rules out Jesus being God. That Jesus was not mentioned by the name Jesus in the Old Testament does not mean Jesus is not God.

Now admittedly, not being a Biblical scholar and all, I still venture to say that Jesus was not the God who brought the Jews out of Egypt, or if he was, he was pretty modest about the whole thing and let God take all the credit.  Nevertheless, I really don't know of any Bible scholar who claims that Jesus led the Jews out of Egypt or had anything to do with it.

There are, however, Biblical scholars who will argue that the appearance of God to Abraham in Genesis 18 is an early appearance of Jesus. I'm not saying they are correct, I'm just saying some will argue that. And Jesus did claim that he existed before Abraham. (John 8:58)

It seems pretty straightforward to me.  Of course if any Jew wants to take it upon himself to reinterpret those seemingly clear and unambiguous words by adding to them, on his own initiative, "except of course my son Jesus" or "except of course my daughter the Cretan Snake Goddess," he is free to do so.  I just would not want to be in his shoes when God asks him, "WTF is wrong with you?  Did I not make Myself perfectly clear in My commandments?  What part of "no other gods" did you not understand?"

Except of course that Jesus, in Christian theology, is not another god. He is the God. He and the Father are one. The Father is God. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God. It's called the concept of the Trinity, and it's weird, and hard to understand, but there it is. I'm not saying you have to believe. I'm just saying in Christian theology Jesus is not some other god apart from the Lord God. He is, in Christian theology, the same Lord God as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

[sirs]

Except of course that Jesus, in Christian theology, is not another god. He is the God. He and the Father are one. The Father is God. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God....He is, in Christian theology, the same Lord God as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Precisely

[Michael Tee]

<<Except of course that Jesus, in Christian theology, is not another god. He is the God. He and the Father are one. The Father is God. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God. It's called the concept of the Trinity, and it's weird, and hard to understand, but there it is. >>

It's not hard to understand at all.  Basically these guys are just a bunch of fucking pagans dressed up as monotheists and trying to have it both ways.  Why limit it to Three?  Why not ten?  Why not six billion? I wanna be God too!  Why can't Mother Teresa be God? Or Bo Diddley?

Anyone who wants to can believe that weird shit.  Me, I'm a simple guy, I'd stick with the simple meaning of the words - - an all-powerful God fucked up the Egyptians for fucking with the Jews and then He got them out of Egypt and then He told them just what I reproduced here, this God speaking to them is the same one that got them out of Egypt, He's the only one there is and he's a jealous God.  Don't take up with some other fake god or your ass is grass.  I'll take that just as I found it or not at all.  There's no indication anywhere in Exodus that Jesus was any part of the whole Egyptian thing and there were no exceptions named when God told the Jews they had to stick with Him.
I'm not saying you have to believe. I'm just saying in Christian theology Jesus is not some other god apart from the Lord God. He is, in Christian theology, the same Lord God as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.