Lesbo Confirmed to SC

[Michael Tee]

<<Hitler is responsible for many more than six million deaths , six million is just the number of Jews.>>

That's true, but only the Jews and the gypsies were deliberately hunted down and rounded up with the intention of killing off every last one of them and exterminating their race from the face of the earth.

<<Stalin still may have a greater number of victims , depending on who is doing the counting .>>

That is bullshit.  Pure Cold War propaganda.

<<Stalin made an allience with Chirchill and FDR eagerly , AFTER his allience with Hitler fell apart.>>

That is not correct either.  Stalin pursued an alliance with Britain and France for almost three years, but had secret parallel negotiations going on with von Ribbentrop just in case.  When it turned out that the British and French diplomats had secret orders to negotiate with Stalin but not to give him the mutual defensive alliance he sought, he surprised them by signing immediately with Nazi Germany. The secret parallel negotiations with Nazi Germany had been carefully hidden from the British and French.  They thought they would fuck him, but then he wound up fucking them instead.   THEN he was fucked by the Nazis and then the British and later the U.S. came to help him, albeit reluctantly and treacherously.

<<Since he chose to sign on with Hitler first , can we not assume that he was more in sympathy with Hitler than with Chirchill?>>

Yes, but only when the story is doctored, as you have doctored it, by completely eliminating the three years of negotiations with France and Great Britain, so as to make it look like Stalin's first choice was Hitler.  Not true at all.  Just more Cold War bullshit.

<<That Hitler turned two faced on Stalin is not amazeing in hindsight , Hitler had allience with homosexuals early on and turned on them when he could do so for advantage.>>

Hitler's alliance was not with "homosexuals" in general, but with one particular homosexual, Ernst Röhm, who he turned on in a power struggle because of Röhm's control of the S.A. (St?rmabteilung) the original corps of brownshirted street-fighters which had propelled Hitler to power.  The S.A. were more right-wing than Hitler, and threatened the established social and financial powers of Germany.  They felt that they and their members had earned the right to high Army rank and to sit on the board of directors of major German corporations, which pissed off the Prussians and Junkers who had traditionally monopolized such positions and were not going to give them up to a rabble of hoodlums and street-fighting thugs.  Furthermore as soon as Hitler seized power, the S.A. began arresting Jews at random, bringing them to various private torture chambers that they controlled in major German cities, torturing them to death and stealing their property as well.  This created image problems for Nazi Germany, which wanted to preserve a veneer of respectability, and there was another reason to rein in the S.A.     Needing the support of the traditional ruling classes of Germany and worried by the power and independence and "wildness" shown by his old street-fighting comrade, Röhm, and his organization, Hitler built the S.S. into a rival organization to the S.A. and on the so-called Night of the Long Knives, used the S.S. to round up and liquidate almost the entire S.A. leadership, Röhm included.  Many of  Röhm's top associates happened to be homosexuals too, and died in the purge, but their homosexuality was not the primary reason for the purge.  Hitler could not afford to be out-flanked on his right.

<<Stalin does not bear close examination by an admirer, merely a thug , not all that smart, he is guilty of many deaths because of the scale of the organisation he took over.>>

I disagree with every word of that, but it's such a broad series of allegations, it would take all night to refute.

<< If Stalin and Pol Pot were exchanged the diffrence in result would be negligable.>>

That's just way too speculative to even start in on.  You're welcome to your opinion, of course,even if it's along the lines of "If Muhammed Ali had been able to fight Jack Dempsey, he would have beat the shit out of him."  But I respectfully disagree with the whole thing.

[Plane]

<<Stalin made an allience with Chirchill and FDR eagerly , AFTER his allience with Hitler fell apart.>>

That is not correct either.  Stalin pursued an alliance with Britain and France for almost three years, but had secret parallel negotiations going on with von Ribbentrop just in case.  When it turned out that the British and French diplomats had secret orders to negotiate with Stalin but not to give him the mutual defensive alliance he sought, he surprised them by signing immediately with Nazi Germany. The secret parallel negotiations with Nazi Germany had been carefully hidden from the British and French.  They thought they would fuck him, but then he wound up fucking them instead.   THEN he was fucked by the Nazis and then the British and later the U.S. came to help him, albeit reluctantly and treacherously.

Woah , you portray him as even more feckless that I thought!
He was playing both sides along and had no preference based on anything other than his advantage?

If I call him faithless and you also point out that he was two faced and untrustworthy , I wonder what we are left to disagree about?

Did the English refuse to promise him a bite of Poland? What do you mean when you say that "They thought they would fuck him" , did they plan somethign more harsh than Operation Barbrarosa?

[Plane]

<<Hitler is responsible for many more than six million deaths , six million is just the number of Jews.>>

That's true, but only the Jews and the gypsies were deliberately hunted down and rounded up with the intention of killing off every last one of them and exterminating their race from the face of the earth.

Cold comfort to the millions killed for less personal reasons.

<<Stalin still may have a greater number of victims , depending on who is doing the counting .>>

That is bullshit.  Pure Cold War propaganda.

No ,it is just as well documented as it possibly could be. If Hitler had won the war, Stalin's crimes would be much better known because Hitler would have a strong intrest in exposing them. Hitler lost and his crimes were subjected to close scrutiny more than Stalin's have been.

  Of course anything you or I can say can be dismissed as "mere " cold war propaganda.  Who could I quote who would have no intrest in promotion of a capitalist agenda , but who would be willing to accuse Stalin of something he had real knowledge of?

Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev perhaps?


 

On February 25, 1956, at the Twentieth Party Congress, he delivered the "Secret Speech", denouncing Stalin's purges and ushering in a less repressive era in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics

[Michael Tee]

<<Woah , you portray him as even more feckless that I thought!
<<He was playing both sides along and had no preference based on anything other than his advantage?>>

Your theories are great, but unfortunately they need to ignore a lot of facts to get there.  For example, the entire Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was negotiated in a few weeks, whereas Stalin had been negotiating with Britain and France for almost three years, during which, several important concessions had been made by the Soviets to secure a mutual defence alliance with the two so-called "democracies."  It was only when Stalin realized that his two negotiating "partners" had been jerking him around that he ordered Molotov to approach Germany and buy some time for the U.S.S.R. to build its defences.  (The way he began to realize that he was being jerked around was that after every Soviet concession, new demands were raised by Britain and France - - only later was it documented that the two "democracies" had publicly agreed to the negotiations only to appease left-wing domestic pressures, mainly from powerful labour unions, to negotiate, but that secret instructions had been given to the negotiators not to agree to a mutual defence pact under any circumstances; the ruling classes of the two nations were convinced that Hitler was going to smash communism once and for all eventually.) 

Stalin was just a lot smarter than his two "Western" negotiating partners - - the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact was swiftly and secretly arranged, and caught them completely flat-footed.  They didn't have a clue - - never saw it coming.  Days later, WWII began.

<<If I call him faithless and you also point out that he was two faced and untrustworthy , I wonder what we are left to disagree about?>>

Faithless my ass.  His two negotiating partners - - and Poland - - were trying to fuck him up the ass and he turned the tables on them.  (Sheees, plane, it's a jungle out there.)

<<Did the English refuse to promise him a bite of Poland? >>

On the contrary, it was the Polacks who refused at the last minute to allow access through Poland to permit the Red Army to come to the aid of France if attacked.  This was the "last straw" that finally officially broke off the negotiations.  Poland, which depended on its Franco-British alliance for its very existence, refused at the last minute to provide something without which, from France's POV, the entire Franco-British-Soviet mutual defence pact would have become useless.  But since Poland itself depended on the support of Britain and France for its very existence, the refusal looked highly suspicious to Uncle Joe.  As if the Polacks themselves had gotten some secret instructions from their protectors.  Together with the pattern of concessions made only to see new demands arise, Uncle Joe started to wonder how those fucking Polacks could get away with obstructing the treaty that their defenders claimed they wanted so badly to negotiate.  The answer of course became obvious.  Can't fool Uncle Joe forever.  Well.   On the theory that when one door closes, you go and open another door, that is exactly what Uncle Joe did.  Good for him.  In the end, both Britain and France were bankrupted by the war and lost their empires.  Fuck them.  They tried to fuck Uncle Joe and in the end, they got fucked themselves.  Served them right.

<<What do you mean when you say that "They thought they would fuck him" , did they plan somethign more harsh than Operation Barbrarosa?>>

In effect, they planned Operation Barbarossa itself, without knowing when it would be launched or what it would be called.  Basically they contrived to refuse to give the U.S.S.R. a mutual defence pact, thinking that sooner or later Hitler would attack (and as they believed, destroy) the U.S.S.R., as he had promised to do in Mein Kampf.  Didn't turn out exactly as they foresaw, but at least they got the Barbarossa part right.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I don't doubt that Stalin was smart or clever, but he certainly had more people killed that I would think necessary. Attacking Finland was also unnecessary and tactically stupid.

Debating who was the bigger monster seems rather futile to me. It's not like history can be changed, or either of these will be reincarnated.

[Michael Tee]

<<Debating who was the bigger monster seems rather futile to me. It's not like history can be changed, or either of these will be reincarnated.>>

The issue is bigger than it appears on the surface.  Following the failure of their protege Hitler to perform as expected, the "Western Allies" renewed their original campaign to crush the Revolution themselves.  To do this, they recruited their former Nazi opponents on a wide scale, also their Eastern European former collaborators, now re-styled as "freedom fighters" as in "Hungarian freedom fighters," "Ukrainian freedom fighters," etc.  Hilarious.  These guys were Nazi collaborators and anti-Semites from top to bottom, and were more enthusiastic participants in the Holocaust than many of the Germans themselves, but now they were "freedom fighters."


To turn these guys into credible "freedom fighters," a wholesale revision of history worthy of the pages of 1984 had to be undertaken.  The new history as re-written, was that these guys were not really allies of Nazi Germany, but signed up only to oppose the "evil" Soviets.  Our former allies and comrades in arms, the U.S.S.R., were suddenly the "bad guys" and those who had collaborated with Hitler were now the "good guys."  To make any of this plausible, "crimes" had to be invented and attributed to the U.S.S.R. which would dwarf anything that Hitler had ever actually committed.  It was a tall order, but the "scholars" and the MSM of the USA, Britain and France were up to the task.  A Cold War mythology developed, which as you can see is accepted holus bolus by the right wingers in the group:  sure these guys may have allied themselves with Hitler, but so what?  Hitler was just a piker compared to the real villain of WWII, Uncle Joe.  Why Uncle Joe's "crimes" dwarfed Hitler's on a scale of something like ten to one, or twenty to one or a hundred to one.

THAT is really what's behind the rehabilitation of Hitler at the expense of our former ally, the U.S.S.R.  George Orwell had it nailed in 1984.  "Oceania was at war with Eurasia.  Oceania had always been at war with Eurasia."  (Said the "newsreel" a few days after the end of Oceania's war with East Asia in which it had been allied with Eurasia.)  Hitler and Goebbels showed the way - - the bigger the lie, the more it will be believed.

[sirs]

Anyone ready to shed the light on who exactly is trying to "rehabilitate" Hitler??

[Xavier_Onassis]

I was not defending the Ukrainian "Freedom Fighters". I would not like to have lived in Nazi Germany or in Stalin's USSR, either. Both these guys were evil. Hitler may have rated a 10, and Stalin only a seven or eight, but passing would be a two or three.

And Stalin invading Finland seems both senseless and tactically stupid. I have this film, "Cuckoo" in which a Russian and a Finnish soldier are befriended by a Lapp woman. None of them speaks or understands the other's languages, and they have a number of conflicts, but eventually survival and humanity prevail.