<<It is far into the game to conclude it has been succesful to this point. >>
"To this point" means what? It succeeded for about 10 months in reducing violence and therefore it'll hold for the next ten? Bullshit.
<<it produced the necessary security buffer, in order for diplomacy to do its thing. >>
Ludicrous assessment. Diplomacy can occur anywhere, any time, with hostilities proceeding or during lulls. Makes no difference whatsoever. The idea that diplomacy can "do its thing" has not yet been borne out. So far, there is not resolution of the conflict and no indication that it's anywhere near.
<< Judgement score, McCain 1, Obama 0>>
In your dreams. On the basis of any permanent good coming from the surge, judgment score, McCain 0, Obama 5.
<<Quote from: Michael Tee on Today at 02:36:57 PM
<<However, even if McCain is right on the surge,
<<ahhhh, here's the even/if tact...even if I'm wrong, I'm right, because..>>
All I was trying to say, which I think everyone in this group understands except you, is that you are wrong because the surge is not working and you are wrong if the surge is working.
You have a problem understanding how you can be wrong in BOTH cases? Here, let me help you out with a simple analogy, it really is not all that difficult. A guy goes to the store to buy his favourite salami, Maple Leaf salami. Not only is the store out of Maple Leaf salami, but (unknown to him) the brand has been taken off the shelf because it's infected with Listeriosis bacteria. He comes home and tells his wife they were out of his favourite salami so this must be his unlucky day. Wife says, "No, it's not your unlucky day because I just bought some Chicago 58 salami and it's in the back of the fridge. But EVEN IF the fridge is empty, you're still wrong about it not being your lucky day because the brand you went to buy has been condemned.
I feel sorry for you as a guy who's wrong if the surge is not working and wrong also if it is, but that's because your thinking is so disorganized and full of holes that you make more than just one single mistake almost every time you open your mouth. That's not my fault, and there's nothing wrong with the argument that points that out.
<<Which again [being right or wrong] is a matter of stark opinion. >>
I agree with that.
<< Intel made it clear it was the right choice at the time. David Kay, weapon's inspector, was stunned to find the levels of concealment Saddam had produced, on his WMD programs. >>
As I've said to plane, we've been round and round this too many times, you have not convinced me and I have not convinced you. At this point the only aspect of this issue worthy of further debate is "How are the voters going to take this?" I am saying the voters will see that Obama's judgment on the war not only was better than McCain's but that there is either no verdict on the surge because it's too early, or that McCain won that one and gets minimal points because the total disaster of his big error in judgment washes out the insignificant matter of being right on the surge.
<<And we won't even go into bizarro world of Bush lying us into war for the oil. >>
Bizarro World is NOT believing Bush lied, and NOT understanding that oil was probably the only and certainly one of the leading motives for the lies.
<<McCain 2, Obama 0>>
Wrong again. On the war, McCain 0, Obama 20; on the surge, McCain 0, Obama 0, or if you believe that the surge is a success, McCain 1, Obama 0; net result best case for McCain, Obama20, McCain 1.
<<Oh yea, VP choices Judgement score, McCain 3, Obama 0>>
No comment, that's just too crazy, a three for that nutbar who's willing to take Georgia and Ukraine into NATO, obligating the U.S. to defend them - - that's a McCain MINUS TEN, Obama 1.