DebateGate

General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Michael Tee on August 29, 2008, 12:36:46 AM

Title: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Michael Tee on August 29, 2008, 12:36:46 AM
Obama's speech was reasonably good.  He sounded tough and firm in his challenge to debate McCain anytime on his fitness to be commander in chief.  I loved the way he swatted away McCain's jibes on his "celebrity" status - - not only demolished the attack completely but at the very same time made McCain look foolish and out of touch.  (Incidentally, there's a lot to be said for repeatedly making him look foolish and out of touch - - the audience will supply the words "old," "over the hill," etc., and Barak doesn't even have to say it.)  And he completely turned around McCain's "experience" argument by turning his long years of service into a negative.  (which IMHO, they are and they ought to be.)

I thought the delivery was at times bad - - Obama looked like he was stumbling his way through a teleprompter and at the same time as he stumbled, his eyes were fixed at some point high up and to the extreme right or left.  Much of the speech was routine, boilerplate and didn't really come alive.  The punch lines had a somewhat wooden delivery.  I've never seen him perform that poorly.  He's been pretty good before, as a matter of fact.

There was some stuff that I thought was just plain bad - - grandiose promises, one about eliminating the dependency on Middle East oil in ten years.  Why would anyone believe that shit?  How?  Promises about huge changes in health care, in education.  What else is new?  And worst of all - -how'd he plann to pay for it?  In answer to the latter question, it's easy:  He'll go through the budget line by line and eliminate wasteful expenditures.  At that point I really expected a huge collective groan to rise to the rafters, but of course - - as the conservatives here like to say - - the audience had drunk the Kool-Aid.

I was very disappointed with two major defects in the speech - - there was no forthright denunciation of torture (although there was a very veiled reference to it) and there was no suggestion, when the issue was raised of how to pay for all the big promises, of cutting the military budget.   These, IMHO, were HUGE omissions. 

Something else that rankled my ass was the "reaching out," in very Hillary-like manner, to the very bane of the liberals' existence - - the right-to-lifers, the gun owners.  It was one of those really wishy-washy whines, "We're all Americans here, can't we get together across the aisle and find a workable compromise?"  Fuck dat.

Last, and maybe this sounds kind of petty, I was disappointed at the general age of the crowd.  I expected all age groups, and there were, but there weren't anywhere near the number of fresh, young student faces that I had expected.  This wasn't a Children's Crusade along the lines of the Eugene McCarthy or RFK campaigns of the 1960s.  Middle age seemed to predominate, and some pretty kooky or eccentric-looking middle-aged people indeed.  I thought back to my relative who had been a chairwoman of the Wayne County ADA back in the Fifties, and they had the same kinda look - - these ladies, and men, were Democrats, couldn't possibly be anything else.  Where was all the dynamism of youth?
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Plane on August 29, 2008, 12:40:16 AM
Hahahahahahaha!

I thought I was being hard to please.
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Michael Tee on August 29, 2008, 12:43:47 AM
He's not the Second Coming, but he's really gonna whip McCain's wrinkled ass.  I saw stuff in that speech that McCain just won't have any credible answers for.
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Plane on August 29, 2008, 12:50:29 AM
He's not the Second Coming, but he's really gonna whip McCain's wrinkled ass.  I saw stuff in that speech that McCain just won't have any credible answers for.


McCain can loose , but he has the genuineness of self on his side.

Only the out of touch beleive that McCain is a lot like Bush , I think that is being pushed at the peril of loss of credibility.

BHO is betting on the credulousness of the voter, he isn't opening hismself to real examination .

He has promised before to meet McCain in a lot of debates , he doesn't mind breaking this promise because it is a political decision , not a decision made for the good of the people.

A lot of debate would be very good for the people , lets see if his renewed promise to debate is honored in some small way.
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Kramer on August 29, 2008, 12:54:59 AM
Obama's speech was reasonably good.  He sounded tough and firm in his challenge to debate McCain anytime on his fitness to be commander in chief.  I loved the way he swatted away McCain's jibes on his "celebrity" status - - not only demolished the attack completely but at the very same time made McCain look foolish and out of touch.  (Incidentally, there's a lot to be said for repeatedly making him look foolish and out of touch - - the audience will supply the words "old," "over the hill," etc., and Barak doesn't even have to say it.)  And he completely turned around McCain's "experience" argument by turning his long years of service into a negative.  (which IMHO, they are and they ought to be.)

I thought the delivery was at times bad - - Obama looked like he was stumbling his way through a teleprompter and at the same time as he stumbled, his eyes were fixed at some point high up and to the extreme right or left.  Much of the speech was routine, boilerplate and didn't really come alive.  The punch lines had a somewhat wooden delivery.  I've never seen him perform that poorly.  He's been pretty good before, as a matter of fact.

There was some stuff that I thought was just plain bad - - grandiose promises, one about eliminating the dependency on Middle East oil in ten years.  Why would anyone believe that shit?  How?  Promises about huge changes in health care, in education.  What else is new?  And worst of all - -how'd he plann to pay for it?  In answer to the latter question, it's easy:  He'll go through the budget line by line and eliminate wasteful expenditures.  At that point I really expected a huge collective groan to rise to the rafters, but of course - - as the conservatives here like to say - - the audience had drunk the Kool-Aid.

I was very disappointed with two major defects in the speech - - there was no forthright denunciation of torture (although there was a very veiled reference to it) and there was no suggestion, when the issue was raised of how to pay for all the big promises, of cutting the military budget.   These, IMHO, were HUGE omissions. 

Something else that rankled my ass was the "reaching out," in very Hillary-like manner, to the very bane of the liberals' existence - - the right-to-lifers, the gun owners.  It was one of those really wishy-washy whines, "We're all Americans here, can't we get together across the aisle and find a workable compromise?"  Fuck dat.

Last, and maybe this sounds kind of petty, I was disappointed at the general age of the crowd.  I expected all age groups, and there were, but there weren't anywhere near the number of fresh, young student faces that I had expected.  This wasn't a Children's Crusade along the lines of the Eugene McCarthy or RFK campaigns of the 1960s.  Middle age seemed to predominate, and some pretty kooky or eccentric-looking middle-aged people indeed.  I thought back to my relative who had been a chairwoman of the Wayne County ADA back in the Fifties, and they had the same kinda look - - these ladies, and men, were Democrats, couldn't possibly be anything else.  Where was all the dynamism of youth?

Scripted and controlled, nothing like his off the cuff debate at Saddleback a week ago. Tonight was Hollywood, acting, fake, phony, and contrived. Nothing new, nothing earth shattering, just more of the same ole politician looking for votes.
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 29, 2008, 12:56:45 AM
I am hoping he wins. It was an excellent speech. I wonder what you think he could have said or promised that was within the range of the possible that woud have made it better. His diction was flawless, his pauses well-timed, his organization superior. I enjoyed his speech, even after hearing all those other guys, who were getting to be a tad tedious.

I suggest that Jesus X. Christ, were he to appear, would not be "the Second Coming", either. I thought he came again, anyway, you know, he popped up after the Crucifixion, and then again at Emmaus. Then he said, well, never mind, Christians don't read their own books, and I quit believing that stuff long, long ago. If he ever was, he isn't now, and I'll let Tom Bodet leave the light on and pay the electric bil, thank you very much.

I am pretty sure that Jesus X would have likely mentioned a number of clearly unconstitutional concepts.
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Kramer on August 29, 2008, 01:01:10 AM
I am hoping he wins. It was an excellent speech. I wonder what you think he could have said or promised that was within the range of the possible that woud have made it better. His diction was flawless, his pauses well-timed, his organization superior. I enjoyed his speech, even after hearing all those other guys, who were getting to be a tad tedious.

I suggest that Jesus X. Christ, were he to appear, would not be "the Second Coming", either. I thought he came again, anyway, you know, he popped up after the Crucifixion, and then again at Emmaus. Then he said, well, never mind, Christians don't read their own books, and I quit believing that stuff long, long ago. If he ever was, he isn't now, and I'll let Tom Bodet leave the light on and pay the electric bil, thank you very much.

I am pretty sure that Jesus X would have likely mentioned a number of clearly unconstitutional concepts.


He promises the world but his track record shows us he can't deliver. I bet if you go back and look at the promises he made to get elected to the US Senate you will find they were just words, empty & hollow words.
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Plane on August 29, 2008, 01:02:29 AM
I am hoping he wins. It was an excellent speech. I wonder what you think he could have said or promised that was within the range of the possible that woud have made it better. His diction was flawless, his pauses well-timed, his organization superior. I enjoyed his speech, even after hearing all those other guys, who were getting to be a tad tedious.

I suggest that Jesus X. Christ, were he to appear, would not be "the Second Coming", either. I thought he came again, anyway, you know, he popped up after the Crucifixion, and then again at Emmaus. Then he said, well, never mind, Christians don't read their own books, and I quit believing that stuff long, long ago. If he ever was, he isn't now, and I'll let Tom Bodet leave the light on and pay the electric bil, thank you very much.

I am pretty sure that Jesus X would have likely mentioned a number of clearly unconstitutional concepts.


Eager to change the subject?

Wow that didn't take long.
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Plane on August 29, 2008, 01:04:26 AM

Scripted and controlled, nothing like his off the cuff debate at Saddleback a week ago. Tonight was Hollywood, acting, fake, phony, and contrived. Nothing new, nothing earth shattering, just more of the same ole politician looking for votes.

   Yep , he shot for the fish in the barrell and played it safe.

  But what a great voice he has!

  I think he would be an exelent Shakesperian actor , imagine the3 soloquy of Hamlet or McBeth in that voice!
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Xavier_Onassis on August 29, 2008, 01:07:31 AM
I am not actually paying any attention to Kramer at all.
Not reading, not responding, being as Kramer is  waste of space and innocent electrons.
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Plane on August 29, 2008, 01:13:02 AM
I am not actually paying any attention to Kramer at all.
Not reading, not responding, being as Kramer is  waste of space and innocent electrons.

Fine with me.

Your prerogative.


But he and I have reason to rejoice tonight.


Tonight in the midst of fireworks and balloons , Barak H. Obama Stood before all the world and proclaimed ....

  "I am more of the same!"
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Michael Tee on August 29, 2008, 01:16:41 AM
<<McCain can loose , but he has the genuineness of self on his side.>>

I don't know what that means, "genuineness of self."  He flips and he flops, like all of them.  On torture.  On the role of the religious right.  He made sacred vows to his wife and broke every one of them.  Obama did not.

<<Only the out of touch beleive that McCain is a lot like Bush , I think that is being pushed at the peril of loss of credibility.>>

You shoulda listened to the speech.  McCain voted with Bush over 90% of the time.

<<BHO is betting on the credulousness of the voter, he isn't opening hismself to real examination .>>

So what?  McCain's not exactly an open book either.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/28/mccain-gets-prickly-durin_n_122087.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/28/mccain-gets-prickly-durin_n_122087.html)

<<He has promised before to meet McCain in a lot of debates , he doesn't mind breaking this promise because it is a political decision , not a decision made for the good of the people.>>

If he talks like he did tonight, he can meet McCain anywhere, anytime, but I don't think that would really be in McCain's best  interests.

<<A lot of debate would be very good for the people , lets see if his renewed promise to debate is honored in some small way.>>

Obama will massacre him.
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Plane on August 29, 2008, 01:22:17 AM
<<He has promised before to meet McCain in a lot of debates , he doesn't mind breaking this promise because it is a political decision , not a decision made for the good of the people.>>

If he talks like he did tonight, he can meet McCain anywhere, anytime, but I don't think that would really be in McCain's best  interests.

<<A lot of debate would be very good for the people , lets see if his renewed promise to debate is honored in some small way.>>

Obama will massacre him.

I wish Obama had your conficence in Obamas ability.

One debate so far , in a restrictive format and Obama could have been doing this every week.

And who massacred who ?
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Michael Tee on August 29, 2008, 01:24:42 AM
<<His diction was flawless . . . >>

Were we watching the same tape?  I distinctly saw him stumble over a word half a dozen times and when he did that his eyes were definitely fixed on what had to be a teleprompter.  Even if there were no teleprompter, he really did lose his way temporarily at least a half-dozen times.

And I was very disappointed not to hear a ringing and unambiguous denunciation of torture.  It's one of the major reasons for the disastrous fall in America's reputation in the world today.  And NO suggestion that giant cuts in the military budget should be the primary source funding of the promises that he made.
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Plane on August 29, 2008, 01:29:58 AM
<<His diction was flawless . . . >>

Were we watching the same tape?  I distinctly saw him stumble over a word half a dozen times and when he did that his eyes were definitely fixed on what had to be a teleprompter.  Even if there were no teleprompter, he really did lose his way temporarily at least a half-dozen times.

And I was very disappointed not to hear a ringing and unambiguous denunciation of torture.  It's one of the major reasons for the disastrous fall in America's reputation in the world today.  And NO suggestion that giant cuts in the military budget should be the primary source funding of the promises that he made.


Oh please mr O cut our huge defense spending down to the level at which all the rest of the world will be approveing.
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Michael Tee on August 29, 2008, 01:36:16 AM
<<And who massacred who ?>>

Cheating doesn't count.  Next time Obama won't let him get away with it.
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Plane on August 29, 2008, 05:34:49 AM
<<And who massacred who ?>>

Cheating doesn't count.  Next time Obama won't let him get away with it.

Right , he won't come anywhere near a real debate if he can avoid it .

I think he knows that McCain is a better thinker on his feet , so we will not likely see him keep this promise.

If we do , then we will see a lot of "he cheated " whineing
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Michael Tee on August 29, 2008, 08:22:58 AM
<<I think he knows that McCain is a better thinker on his feet , so we will not likely see him keep this promise>>

If Obama is way ahead in the polls, it would be very stupid for him to debate anyone, regardless of how good or bad a debater that person is.  If it's too close to call, or Obama is behind, a debate might be in order.  I never got the impression that you did, that McCain "thinks better" than Obama does on his feet.  I think it's true that Obama tends to give more thoughtful, nuanced answers and McCain tends to give glib sound-bites.  "We'll defeat it [evil]" being one of the best examples I can think of from the Saddleback debates, which were in a format designed to facilitate cheating.  Well, you know the old adage, "Fool me once . . ."  Obama will insist on very tight anti-cheating precautions next time he debates that little weasel, that's for sure.

<<If we do , then we will see a lot of "he cheated " whineing>>

Sorry, plane, but it ain't whining if the other guy really cheated.  And I believe that "Pastor Rick" was in on it.  That's probably the real reason Obama people want to soft-pedal it.  I think in the real world, you don't get anywhere attacking a preacher, any preacher.  It usually turns out to be a very counter-productive exercise.  You won't hear "whining" - - as you are pleased to call it - - following a debate ever again in this election, because Obama won't let it happen again, and even if it does, against all precautions, Obama himself would hush it up so as not to look like a sucker.  People don't like to elect suckers as leaders.  And I was, in fact, more pissed off at Obama than at McCain over this; Obama should have known better, knowing that Republicans cheat, and been ready for it.

Of course, if there should be another debate, I expect Obama to win handily, and I also expect all the whining in the world from the McCain camp.
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Michael Tee on August 29, 2008, 11:01:42 AM
<<Oh please mr O cut our huge defense spending down to the level at which all the rest of the world will be approveing.>>

That's a ridiculous way to put it.  Nobody but you mentioned the world's approval.  Getting back to the real world again, the real demand is:

Cut it down to the level which is appropriate to the actual threats faced, so we can fix health care and education and housing right here at home, even though those objectives are not even on McCain's radar screen and even though it may displease certain gigantic "defence" contractors, fascists and militarists who support McCain and his party in various ways.

Too bad Obama doesn't have the guts to say it.  The more I think about this, the more I realize the better candidate would have been the Rev. Jeremiah Wright.
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Plane on August 29, 2008, 05:43:49 PM
<<Oh please mr O cut our huge defense spending down to the level at which all the rest of the world will be approveing.>>

That's a ridiculous way to put it.  Nobody but you mentioned the world's approval.  Getting back to the real world again, the real demand is:

Cut it down to the level which is appropriate to the actual threats faced, so we can fix health care and education and housing right here at home, even though those objectives are not even on McCain's radar screen and even though it may displease certain gigantic "defence" contractors, fascists and militarists who support McCain and his party in various ways.

Too bad Obama doesn't have the guts to say it.  The more I think about this, the more I realize the better candidate would have been the Rev. Jeremiah Wright.


Obama campaigned in Europe , it is fair to post reminders of this.
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Michael Tee on August 29, 2008, 09:29:23 PM
<<Obama campaigned in Europe , it is fair to post reminders of this.>>

That was no campaign since the people whom he visited could not vote for him.  It was a combination fact-finding and get-acquainted tour.

But call it what you will - - at what point in his "campaign in Europe" did he ask for European approval of the size of the U.S. military?  This is just one more fictional product of your over-heated conservative brain.  It never happened, and I think you know that.
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Plane on August 30, 2008, 01:58:16 AM
<<Obama campaigned in Europe , it is fair to post reminders of this.>>

That was no campaign since the people whom he visited could not vote for him.  It was a combination fact-finding and get-acquainted tour.

But call it what you will - - at what point in his "campaign in Europe" did he ask for European approval of the size of the U.S. military?  This is just one more fictional product of your over-heated conservative brain.  It never happened, and I think you know that.
Perhaps I am mistaken then.

What in yuor opinion will BHO do with the US military budget?

I know the president doesn't make it up by himself , but he is very influential , and the Congress might be the same party.
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Plane on August 30, 2008, 03:00:27 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/29/the-daily-shows-obama-bio_n_122350.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/29/the-daily-shows-obama-bio_n_122350.html)


Funny
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Michael Tee on August 30, 2008, 04:19:52 AM
<<What in yuor opinion will BHO do with the US military budget?>>

Well, if he's serious about going after al Qaeda in Afghanistan or Pakistan, he'll probably increase it.  He sure as hell won't be able to sneak quietly out of Iraq.
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: sirs on August 30, 2008, 03:36:33 PM
I think it's true that Obama tends to give more thoughtful, nuanced answers and McCain tends to give glib sound-bites.  

Washing that thru the lib-unspinzter cycle, we have Obama well anwer in the most vague verbosity possible to attempt to offend the least amount of voters, McCain will generally tell you what he believes, and you can take it or leave it


Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Michael Tee on August 30, 2008, 06:05:50 PM
I think it's true that Obama tends to give more thoughtful, nuanced answers and McCain tends to give glib sound-bites. 

<<Washing that thru the lib-unspinzter cycle, we have Obama well anwer in the most vague verbosity possible to attempt to offend the least amount of voters>>

Thanks for your opinion as to why Obama says what he says.  But if we limit ourselves to what we can actually SEE AND HEAR, it's pretty clear that, as I said in the first place, Obama's answers are more thoughtful and nuanced and McCain's are usually glib sound-bites.

I know YOUR opinion on why Obama's answers are more thoughtful and nuanced, and now here's mine:  it's because he's more intelligent and honest than McCain, who's just mugging for the cameras, and because he really understands the issues much better than McCain, who often doesn't understand them at all.

<<McCain will generally tell you what he believes, and you can take it or leave it>>

Yeah, I guess the problem is that McCain doesn't seem to know from one day to the next what he believes.  One day the religious right are divisive "agents of intolerance," the next he is chasing them with a gigantic hard-on right up to their pulpits; one day he wants the "President" to ban torture absolutely, the next he figures America can live with it; one day "experience" in military matters is so vital that Obama simply can't be President, the next it's so trivial that even Sarah Palin will be able to get the hang of it, if necessary in days or weeks.  That's why you CAN'T "take it or leave it."  Nobody knows what to take or what to leave.  The guy has two positions on everything.
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: sirs on August 30, 2008, 06:12:32 PM
I think it's true that Obama tends to give more thoughtful, nuanced answers and McCain tends to give glib sound-bites.   

<<Washing that thru the lib-unspinzter cycle, we have Obama well anwer in the most vague verbosity possible to attempt to offend the least amount of voters>>

Thanks for your opinion as to why Obama says what he says.  But if we limit ourselves to what we can actually SEE AND HEAR, it's pretty clear that..

LOL....it's pretty clear how he's trying to offend the least amount of people as possible.  Above his pay grade??  Good gravy, it doesn't get any more transparent than that, from someone who wants to make the command decisions for this country.  Everyone watching, saw that.  Everyone listening, heard that.


Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Plane on August 30, 2008, 06:15:48 PM
I think it's true that Obama tends to give more thoughtful, nuanced answers and McCain tends to give glib sound-bites. 



This is the Uninted States he is running in , this is where the Bumper sticker was invented earlyer than the Auto to put it on.

Do you see which style is more advantaged?
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Michael Tee on August 30, 2008, 06:24:57 PM
<<Do you see which style is more advantaged?>>

Yeah.  But still I give the American people more credit.  I don't think they're really gonna decide this one on bumper-sticker slogans.  At least not the people Obama brought into the political process, the ones who aren't brain-dead of cynicism.
Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: Plane on August 30, 2008, 06:27:15 PM
<<Do you see which style is more advantaged?>>

Yeah.  But still I give the American people more credit.  I don't think they're really gonna decide this one on bumper-sticker slogans.  At least not the people Obama brought into the political process, the ones who aren't brain-dead of cynicism.



Quote
But still I give the American people more credit.
 


Hehehehehe , ....
not often you don't.

.                                                                                    Still working on MY beam.

Title: Re: I'm giving him a B or maybe even a B-
Post by: sirs on August 30, 2008, 06:37:02 PM
<<Do you see which style is more advantaged?>>

Yeah.  But still I give the American people more credit.  I don't think they're really gonna decide this one on bumper-sticker slogans. 

Yea, "It's the economy, stupid" had so little to do with campaign speeches      ::)