Author Topic: Soros  (Read 6961 times)

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BT

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Re: Soros
« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2007, 03:20:08 PM »
Quote
It's way too complex for me.

I can relate.

Who pays for you to post opinions. Who pullls your strings?

i ask because it is my understanding that it is nigh impossible for individuals to post their opinions without being beholden to the oligarch of choice.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 05:43:33 PM by BT »

sirs

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Re: Soros
« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2007, 05:42:15 PM »
<<Quoting Wikipedia quoting a reporter by the name of Fisk, is not quoting Pollack, especially when the same source Wikipedia, also demonstrates the obvious problems Fisk has with "objective" reporting, as highlighted by Bt.  Your follow-up attempt to try and rationalize Fisk's shortcomings, when presented, was beyond comical.

<<I'd suggest trying again, but realize you'd present the exact same factless accusation you started with.  I think Pollack had a term for that...."creative ommissions"  Your repetition in this endeavor is indeed appreciated>>
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Hilarious, ..........

......is the fact that not only can you provide ANYTHING resembling a quote of Pollack's that would validate your mindless accusation that he supported invasion, but the continued jester-like somersaults in irrational rationalizations supporting the biased reporting of Fisk.

Yes, you have been very entertaining as of late, trying to climb out of your latest factless hole
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Soros
« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2007, 05:53:59 PM »
<<I can relate.

<<Who pays for you to post opinions. Who pullls your strings?

<<i ask because it is my understanding that it is nigh impossible for individuals to post their opinions without being beholden to the oligarch of choice.>>

Ask the question when my opinions start to reach the level of distribution and mass audience of Fisk and his Zionist adversaries.  Any schmuck can post anything where his opinions don't reach past the eyes and ears of a dozen powerless schmucks like himself, all venting for one another's benefit.  When you start reaching broader levels of distribution, where money is required for mass dissemination, it's a whole nuther story. sirs has a better chance of being heard in the MSM than I do.  Except that he's superfluous, they already have enough "useful idiots."  God, but you can be so naive in your questions sometimes.

Michael Tee

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Re: Soros
« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2007, 06:20:25 PM »
<<Hilarious......is the fact that not only can you [not] provide ANYTHING resembling a quote of Pollack's that would validate your mindless accusation that he supported invasion . . . >>

Uh, if I may remind you, sirs, the TITLE of his own book, which I provided in my every post on the subject, IS a quote of Pollack and it directly validates the accusation that he supported the invasion.  Other evidence as well was provided in the form of Wikipedia reports of others criticizing Pollack for supporting the war.  It's good enough for me, and probably good enough for every other member of this group.  That it's not good enough for you proves only what I've said all along about you, that you are just a fucking idiot whose opinion is not worth further discussion.

Where is it written that the only evidence supporting Pollack's support of the invasion has to be a quote from the man himself?  There is plenty of evidence to support the fact that Hitler was an anti-Semite or that the Pope is Catholic.  The necessity of producing actual quotes from the individuals concerned is ludicrous.  Anyone suggesting that the case could not be proven without such direct quotes would be dismissed as a fucking idiot, as I so dismiss you.

<<but the continued jester-like somersaults in irrational rationalizations supporting the biased reporting of Fisk.>>

Fisk has been slandered and smeared by a powerful propaganda operation aimed at intimidating and silencing MSM criticism of Israel in the North American MSM and universities, and has so far weathered the storm pretty well.  MSM audiences in print and TV at least are steadily going down, and the canned nature of their reporting and obvious pro-administration, pro-Israel slants may be a good part of the reason why.  People know when they are being conned, which is where guys like Fisk come in.  I think, slowly but surely, more people are starting to realize the extent of the pro-Zionist agenda of American MSM.  Smear jobs of the kind mounted against Fisk, Juan Cole and others are starting to backfire.

<<Yes, you have been very entertaining as of late, trying to climb out of your latest factless hole>>

The so-called factless hole is the one you dug yourself with your ludicrous lie that Pollack opposed the invasion from the get-go, a whopper of laughably obscene proportions.  Your attempts to dig your way out of it by flatly denying whatever evidence of Pollack's support of the invasion is produced, from sources such as Wikipedia and the title of his own book, without producing a shred of your own evidence to support his so-called opposition to the war, is beyond ludicrous, it is simply pathetic.  Since Pollack was introduced into this topic by you, either in this thread or another, with the statement that he opposed the war from the get-go, it is of course YOU who are obligated to produce proof that he was in fact what you say he was, an opponent of the war from the get-go.  THAT is the hole you dug yourself into, and from which you must dig yourself out.  But of course you CAN'T dig yourself out, since, like 99% of what you post here, it too is a lie.

sirs

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Re: Soros
« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2007, 06:42:25 PM »
<<Hilarious......is the fact that not only can you [not] provide ANYTHING resembling a quote of Pollack's that would validate your mindless accusation that he supported invasion . . . >>

Uh, if I may remind you, sirs, the TITLE of his own book, which I provided in my every post on the subject, IS a quote of Pollack and it directly validates the accusation that he supported the invasion. 

And as most rationally minded people are aware of, the title of a book is not a defacto position of the author, especially when
a) there's on record quotes, numerous times, espousing the opposite
b) you have NO quote of his that supports your accusation
c) all you can do is repeat the title of the book in "every post on the subject".  Kinda like repeating Abu Graib or Salon as the defacto facts of an accusation, that under even the simplest of scrutiny, falls apart like wet bread

Not to mention the mind numbing cart wheels of rationalization regarding Fisk, as your supposed smoking gun of what Pollack really thinks.  Kinda like you reading the mind of Fisk, reading the mind of Pollack.  Perhaps we can slip Kevin Bacon in there somewhere


Other evidence as well was provided in the form of Wikipedia ......

Such as those criticizing Fisk for his LESS than objective ability at reporting stories. 

The fact that I'm sure you've tried to find some quote of Pollack's that would substantiate your accusation, and best you could do was finding a citing wikipedia citing Fisk, more than helps debunk your illogical & completely irrational template yet again.  Again, we thank you


"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Soros
« Reply #50 on: September 30, 2007, 07:02:20 PM »
<<And as most rationally minded people are aware of, the title of a book is not a defacto position of the author, especially when
a) there's on record quotes, numerous times, espousing the opposite
b) you have NO quote of his that supports your accusation
c) all you can do is repeat the title of the book in "every post on the subject".  Kinda like repeating Abu Graib or Salon as the defacto facts of an accusation, that under even the simplest of scrutiny, falls apart like wet bread>>

I guess then at this point we have three pieces of evidence that at least points prima facie (in the absence of countervailing evidence)  to Pollack supporting the war, some criticism of their adequacy (which may or may not be valid, but fails to disprove any of them) and ZERO ZIP NADA from you in support of your original contention that Pollack opposed the war from the get-go.

That looks like this: three pieces of evidence tending to show Pollack's support of the war but not conclusively demonstrating it, and ZERO ZIP NADA pieces of evidence to the contrary.  In other words, a score of three-zip, in favour of Tee against sirs.  Where I come from, 3-0 is a WIN.  Which makes you a LOSER.  All the more so since you introduced Pollack into the equation with the statement that he opposed the war from the get-go.  LAUGHABLE.  Because you have not produced a single shred of proof of that proposition.  Of course not.  How can you?  It's a lie.

<<The fact that I'm sure you've tried to find some quote of Pollack's that would substantiate your accusation, and best you could do was finding a citing wikipedia citing Fisk, more than helps debunk your illogical & completely irrational template yet again. >>

Actually, you've got that turned around 180 degrees as you usually do.  Since YOU were the one who introduced Pollack into this thread with the absurd lie that he was an opponent of the war from the get-go, YOU are the one who should have been trying to find some quote of Pollack's that would help YOU, and you seem to have failed utterly to do so.  The evidence that I found that Pollack in fact supported the war is just the icing on the cake.

<< Again, we thank you>>

Unless you're a total masochist, sirs, or (much more likely) a complete idiot, there is really no need to thank me.  All I did was once again demonstrate how you lie, and lie, and lie and lie.  Nothing much to thank me for, really, is there?


« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 02:45:08 AM by Michael Tee »

BT

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Re: Soros
« Reply #51 on: September 30, 2007, 08:14:46 PM »
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Ask the question when my opinions start to reach the level of distribution and mass audience of Fisk and his Zionist adversaries.  Any schmuck can post anything where his opinions don't reach past the eyes and ears of a dozen powerless schmucks like himself, all venting for one another's benefit.

Everybody starts out small.

Kos didn't start out with a million readers on day one. Neither did Glenn Reynolds.

Your whole libel that bloggers are in the pockets of AIPAC or the influence group du jour does not withstand scrutiny.

And these are the folks fisking Fisk.

Michael Tee

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Re: Soros
« Reply #52 on: September 30, 2007, 08:25:32 PM »
<<Your whole libel that bloggers are in the pockets of AIPAC or the influence group du jour does not withstand scrutiny.>>

That wasn't my whole libel.  Wasn't even part of my libel.  MY comments were directed at four specific individuals, all of whom have access to the MSM for the airing of their views.  The primary sources libelling Fisk are Zionist propagandists, and MSM figures in all likelihood put up to it by Zionist PR.

The bloggers who take it up from there are more or less just dumb, ignorant schmucks taken in by the smear campaign because they don't have the built-in BS detectors to see it for what it all too obviously is - - people like you or sirs, for example.

<<And these are the folks fisking Fisk. >>

These guys - - the ones who bought the smear campaign's BS - - are not paid off by anyone.  They're just "dumb schmucks" or as Rich would say, "useful idiots" - - they spread BS for free which others were paid handsomely to make up.

BT

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Re: Soros
« Reply #53 on: September 30, 2007, 08:34:07 PM »
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That wasn't my whole libel.  Wasn't even part of my libel.  MY comments were directed at four specific individuals, all of whom have access to the MSM for the airing of their views.  The primary sources libelling Fisk are Zionist propagandists, and MSM figures in all likelihood put up to it by Zionist PR.

The bloggers who take it up from there are more or less just dumb, ignorant schmucks taken in by the smear campaign because they don't have the built-in BS detectors to see it for what it all too obviously is - - people like you or sirs, for example.

That isn't even close to the  wiki definition. Fisking is a blog phenomena. MSM has little to do with this. Fact is fisking is anti-msm.

"Fisking" in its current meaning was coined by bloggers in 2001, following a trenchant three-paragraph attack by Andrew Sullivan in response to an article written by Fisk in December 2001.[5] Though the term was not coined by Sullivan at that time, it appeared soon after on Instapundit and Sullivan's weblog. Sullivan used the term when responding to a dispatch by Fisk from Pakistan that recounted his beating at the hands of Afghan refugees.

Michael Tee

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Re: Soros
« Reply #54 on: September 30, 2007, 09:20:21 PM »
I'm starting to wonder where this thing is going and what's the point.  What does the precise meaning of "fisking" have to do with Fisk's reliability as a reporter of facts?  Suppose the guy to be the victim of a Zionist smear campaign as I argued,originating with MSM writers or broadcasters.  if the campaign were successful, bloggers would be persuaded that he was a schmuck and would blog accordingly.

If the campaign originated in the blogosphere, that also is no guarantee of its purity.  The bloggers who originated the smears have to be examined for Zionist affiliation, content plausibility, etc., all the stuff you'd examine a MSM source for except who signs the paycheques, becuase the bloggers don't get one.  Still does not mean they can't be bought.

Again, if the campaign were successful, other bloggers could follow suit believing the first bloggers and blog accordingly. 

Doesn't mean the bloggers are paid off by anyone, in either case, but the mere fact of the "fisking" has zero value as evidence of Fisk's reliability or otherwise.  He's fisked because he's a bad reporter or he's fisked because he's been wrongly smeared.  The fisking itself means nothing.  And I have to wonder how widespread the term would have become without Eric S. Raymond's guiding clout.

BT

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Re: Soros
« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2007, 10:59:52 PM »
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If the campaign originated in the blogosphere, that also is no guarantee of its purity.

No

But there is no automatic assumption that bloggers, some of whom you have run across in your years of posting on this forum, people like Brass and Plum and Henny and JayC28 have all blogged at one time or another, and i doubt any of them are a part of some vast zionist conspiracy.

Bloggers aren't much different than your or I. We post our opinions and wait for the feedback, trying our damnedest to maintain some semblance of credibility as we do so.


sirs

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Re: Soros
« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2007, 11:10:03 PM »
Ahh, for all to see, the art of misdirection, as personified by Tee.  Well, in this thread alone we've had his hyperbolic accusations (minus any facts), cartoonish rationalizations of an obviously biased reporter, and now misdirection "don't look here, look there".  In this case. Tee's accusation that Keneth Pollack supports invasion, but then demands that someone else prove he doesn't, when Pollack's own article I posted not more than 2 weeks ago references precisely that.

Sorry Tee, the way it works is when YOU make an accusation, YOU're the one that's obligated to back it up.  Citing wikipedia citing some biased reporter in Fisk, is not citing Pollack.  Citing Pollack supporting the invasion of Iraq is what gets you off the hook.  Sure, you can convince yourself, then again you can simply just take your own word for it, and whala, proof postive....to YOU

Not some title on a book, but something on the record, something like "The end of the inspections eliminated the single best means of vetting what information intelligence agencies could gather independently about Iraq. These agencies usually shared (in some form) new information or analyses about the WMD programs with UNSCOM. If a defector claimed that biological-weapons material was stored at a given site, inspectors would look for it. If satellite imagery indicated unusual activity at a particular location, inspectors would try to confirm it.....The one action for which I cannot hold Administration officials blameless is their distortion of intelligence estimates when making the public case for going to war.....The war was not all bad. I do not believe that it was a strategic mistake, although the appalling handling of postwar planning was.....the case for war - and for war sooner rather than later - was certainly less compelling than it appeared at the time.  At the very least we should recognize that the Administration's rush to war was reckless even on the basis of what we thought we knew in March of 2003"

Yea, really sounds like someone hell bent on invading Iraq     ::)
« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 12:05:13 AM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Soros
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2007, 01:48:10 AM »
<<But there is no automatic assumption that bloggers, some of whom you have run across in your years of posting on this forum, people like Brass and Plum and Henny and JayC28 have all blogged at one time or another, and i doubt any of them are a part of some vast zionist conspiracy.>>

Where is all this coming from?  Whoever claimed that bloggers are part of a Zionist conspiracy?  I thought I made it plain that it works like this - - some people are paid to write articles, others happen to do it from love of Israel, others as favours; from the POV of the PR managers, their job is to get a wave of opinion going - - in this case, trash Fisk - - and they have an unlimited budget and a lot of natural talent.  One writer they know is sympathetic, they schmooze with the guy and commiserate how awful it is that those antisemitic bastards like Fisk are trashing Israel in the media and setting the stage for 1933 all over again, another guy they feed stuff to, hoping he'll write about it, another guy they have to pay to do it, another guy . . . figure it out for chrissake.  There's as many ways as there are writers.  Or do you want to pretend that AIPAC doesn't manage the news, they leave coverage of the Arab Israeli conflict up to the luck of the draw and hope for the best.  What are you, crazy?

NO, they don't have to corrupt every single fucking blogger on the face of the earth.  They start something going from a small nucleus and it takes on a life of its own.  Plenty of schmucks pick up on the criticisms of Fisk - - from here, from this angle, from that angle.  If they are naturally sympathetic to Israel, they get indignant: "this fucking antisemite can't even get his facts right" and they start quoting from the initial seeds planted. 

I find it absolutely incredible that you seem to have no inkling of what a sophisticated PR campaign is all about, how it works, what it takes to get it started, how a good one will develop its own dynamic and become self-perpetuating after awhile.  It's done in business, it's done in music, it's done in politics and yet you seem to have absolultely no familiarity whatsoever with this subject.  It's easier for you to imagine all the world's bloggers being hooked into a vast Zionist conspiracy than it is for you to recognize the timeworn workings of a well-run PR campaign with big bucks behind it.  Like you were born yesterday in a cotton patch.  Jeeeeziz.

BT

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Re: Soros
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2007, 02:10:11 AM »
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Where is all this coming from?  Whoever claimed that bloggers are part of a Zionist conspiracy?  I thought I made it plain that it works like this - - some people are paid to write articles, others happen to do it from love of Israel, others as favours; from the POV of the PR managers, their job is to get a wave of opinion going - - in this case, trash Fisk - - and they have an unlimited budget and a lot of natural talent.  One writer they know is sympathetic, they schmooze with the guy and commiserate how awful it is that those antisemitic bastards like Fisk are trashing Israel in the media and setting the stage for 1933 all over again, another guy they feed stuff to, hoping he'll write about it, another guy they have to pay to do it, another guy . . . figure it out for chrissake.  There's as many ways as there are writers.  Or do you want to pretend that AIPAC doesn't manage the news, they leave coverage of the Arab Israeli conflict up to the luck of the draw and hope for the best.  What are you, crazy?

But that isn't what happened. A blogger took an article by Fisk and dissected it bit by bit. Thus the term was born.

The conspiracy is born of your fevered brain.

Fisking happens in this forum all the time.

Prince does it, so does JS.


Michael Tee

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Re: Soros
« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2007, 02:22:09 AM »
sirs, you have just got to stop lying.  It isn't good for you and I will not let you get away with it.  For example:  YOU are the person who brought Pollack into this thread.  When you brought Pollack into the thread, you specifically stated that he opposed the war from the get-go.  That was a lie.  It was YOUR lie.  I challenged your lie.

As soon as I challenged your lie, you should have - - if you were an honest man instead of the liar you are - - run for documentation that Pollack did in fact - - from the get-go - - oppose the war.  BUT HIS BOOK WRITTEN BEFORE THE WAR SUPPORTED AN INVASION.  So naturally you could not do that.  You could not prove that Pollack opposed the war from the get-go because in fact his book was inciting the people to SUPPORT an invasion of Iraq.

In fact, I went further than challenging your lie.  I actually produced what evidence I could that it was a lie - - that Fisk had criticized him for supportng the war, that others had criticized him for supporting the war, and that his book was titled The Case for Invading Iraq.  Not only did I challenge your lie, I went further and showed WHY I challenged it.

Now Fisk may or may not be the greatest reporter since Edward R. Murrow; probably not, but what the hell, good enough for me and a lot of other folks.  Not good enough for a lot of Zionist flacks and their dupes, but that's OK too, they have a right to their opinion.  The title of his book is not definitive either - - it's theoretically possible, though highly unlikely, that a man could write a book called The Case for Invading Iraq and in fact it's NOT a case for invading Iraq but a cookbook or a history of sexual perversion in 14th Century Mesopotamia or a religious tract on the salvation of levitators, but in my humble experience, living in the real world as I do and not in some fruit-bat's alternative universe, when a man writes a book titled The Case for Invading Iraq, dollars to donuts it more often than not DOES present the case for invading Iraq.  Case closed.  (unless you're a fucking moron)

So I feel, with considerable justification, that I have gone that extra mile.  I not only challenged your ridiculous lie, I produced what evidence I had (short of actually reading the asshole's book, which I'm frankly not prepared to do - - any more than I'd have to read Mein Kampf cover-to-cover before daring to contradict Hitler or be able to state whether or not he was an anti-semite) and with the evidence I had, showed pretty conclusively how absurd it was to claim that Pollack had opposed the war from the get-go, when he actually wrote a book supporting it. 

Now, what did YOU do when your Big Lie was challenged?  Did you go that extra mile?  Hardly.  In fact you didn't even get up off your ass.  Didn't produce one single shred of evidence that Pollack had in fact opposed the war from the get-go.  ZERO.  ZIP.  NADA.  In fact, absurdly, you claimed that it was MY obligation to prove that Pollack had not opposed the war from the get-go.

Get this.  Although YOU introduced Pollack into the thread, WITH the claim that he had opposed the war from the get-go, suddenly it became MY obligation to prove that he didn't.  Huh?  Excuse me?  YOU make the allegation that Pollack did oppose the war from the get-go, it becomes YOUR obligation to prove that he did when challenged. 

Oh, and that little piece that you just quoted in your last post - - cute that you didn't provide attribution or date.  A LOT of people backed off the project after it went sour and became critics, Pollack obviously being one of them, one of many.  Criticizing the war long after it's become obvious what a fucked up idea the whole thing was is NOT "opposing the war from the get-go."  It's just covering one's own ass.

Pollack is as I've previously pointed out a paid Zionist hack.  He works under a Zionist boss in a Zionist institution financed by a Zionist billionaire and his credibility is actually lower than zero.  You quoted him in support of the proposition that Bush did not lie the country into war.  You couldn't have found a sleazier, more dishonest, more discredited individual to exonerate Bush if you had combed the cells of the local prison.  Pollack has very good reason to calm the waters and to dispel the illusion that the war was the product of lies, because when that seeps out, people naturally want to know WHOSE lies, and where those lies came from and who promoted them and who benefited from them, and these questions are not good for friendly relations between the U.S.A. and Israel.  Best NOT to leave any impression that the war was the result of a Big Lie.  Best leave it to "faulty intelligence."  And Pollack - - despite his frantic attempts to cover his ass and deny any part in promoting the failed war - - is still loyal to the Cause.  He'll say whatever he has to say to squelch the perception that Bush or anyone else "lied the U.S.A. into the war."