Author Topic: Obama perfect?  (Read 58269 times)

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BT

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #195 on: July 04, 2008, 04:49:58 PM »
Quote
but I see kids being harmed, as I posted earlier.

as do i. but nclb is not doing the harm. NCLB is words on a page.

It doesn't pressure anyone. It doesn't force anyone to teach to the test. Nowhere does it say game the system to save your job which is what teaching to the test is all about.

No NCLB doesn't harm the kids. That would be someone or something else.


sirs

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #196 on: July 04, 2008, 04:54:38 PM »
I noticed no response to this query, as Cynthia kept requesting that people just watch and listen to Obama's video. so, I'll ask it again, unless of course she's thinking this is some personal attack.    ::) 

I'm assuming we'd point Cynthia to a McCain video to give an accurate representation of the war in Iraq, currently.  He "listens" to the troops and to the commanders, and that's all one needs for clarity, right??
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Cynthia

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #197 on: July 04, 2008, 05:11:16 PM »
I noticed no response to this query, as Cynthia kept requesting that people just watch and listen to Obama's video. so, I'll ask it again, unless of course she's thinking this is some personal attack.    ::) 

I'm assuming we'd point Cynthia to a McCain video to give an accurate representation of the war in Iraq, currently.  He "listens" to the troops and to the commanders, and that's all one needs for clarity, right??

Come on, Sirs...those videos speak for me.

I have told you that there are glitches, and I have shown you videos of teachers and administrators who resonate my view.

There is only hope for the furture now from Obama.

I have outlined just how the system is broken with my own experiences.

Over testing. Period.

NCLB is the ultimate reason why these changes are damaging the PS system.

You are arguing for the sake of arguing. We'll just see who wins the election and then we will see just how the system will be fixed. Then, I'll get back to you.

For now, it's not working as well as planned.

Cynthia

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #198 on: July 04, 2008, 05:18:58 PM »
and btw, I  really do believe now that you don't know anything about the public school's problems which stem from the NCLB, do you?
Well, if anything, you should learn what is really happening out in the world of education....from the videos  I have posted.

. .......Watch the videos or not...your choice to hear the voices of truth......you might learn what is really happening.... then come on back with more of your snide remarks. ;)

This is getting nowhere.


Cynthia

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #199 on: July 04, 2008, 05:21:02 PM »
Quote
but I see kids being harmed, as I posted earlier.

as do i. but nclb is not doing the harm. NCLB is words on a page.

It doesn't pressure anyone. It doesn't force anyone to teach to the test. Nowhere does it say game the system to save your job which is what teaching to the test is all about.

No NCLB doesn't harm the kids. That would be someone or something else.



as do i. but nclb is not doing the harm. NCLB is words on a page.


Like I said earlier.....yes, it is. Listen to the many voices of experience.

Bottom line.....each and every time I try to show you or tell you how I see the NCLB act as "responsible" for the glitches in the education system PS)....You side step the issue and refuse to hear the points even by the politicians who supported it back then and do not support it now. Biden is one. He wanted Kennedy to have success with this act and even HE has said it should be scrapped. ( during the dem.debate)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 05:29:47 PM by Cynthia »

sirs

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #200 on: July 04, 2008, 05:42:22 PM »
I'm assuming we'd point Cynthia to a McCain video to give an accurate representation of the war in Iraq, currently.  He "listens" to the troops and to the commanders, and that's all one needs for clarity, right??

Come on, Sirs...those videos speak for me.  I have told you that there are glitches, and I have shown you videos of teachers and administrators who resonate my view.  There is only hope for the furture now from Obama.

So, to flip that 180: the war in Iraq has had glitches, there are videos of military folks who resonate a similar view as my own, and that "the only hope for the future now is McCain"

Now, I'm not some McCain Kool-aide drinker and believe he's the best thing since sliced bread, but he at least has "listened" to the commanders on the ground, he has an intimate knowledge of military tactics & strategy.  And he, unlike this fella Obama, has made numerous efforts to work wth the other side, on a whole host of issues.  Can't say the same of that fella Obama now.  But watching his video's all that you needed, huh?  Interesting


You are arguing for the sake of arguing. We'll just see who wins the election and then we will see just how the system will be fixed. Then, I'll get back to you.

I don't mean to be picking on you Cynthia, but I think this is now the standard defense mechanism, when dealing with criticism you feel overwhelmed with.  Arguing for the sake of arguing??  All the while no specifics, no outline of what specifically needs fixed, or how its to be payed for....just vote for him and watch it all turn out just peachy, because........well, because he said so.  It's in the video

« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 06:04:19 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #201 on: July 04, 2008, 05:59:11 PM »
Teaching to the test is a conscious act. An administrator suggests or a teacher decides to do just that. The state picks the curriculum. NCLB doesn't mandate Mifflin over Prentice Hall. The state chose how they will meet the requirements set forth by NCLB. Your ire is misdirected and you hope for a solution is misguided. Unless you want Obama mandating and usurping the role of the state and local school board.

Then again he could abandon minimum requirements and let the kids sink further behind in this age of global competition.

 


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #202 on: July 04, 2008, 07:01:23 PM »
Every test in every state is a multiple choice. There is no chance that this will change, as they need a test that can be graded by machine.

Which has little to do with NCLB,  which was the claim.


===================
It has everything to do with it, because every test used in NCLB is a multiple choice test.

Education cannot be codified into bubbled answers on an exam. Such tests can only prove that people have been TRAINED, not educated.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #203 on: July 04, 2008, 07:42:00 PM »
It has everything to do with it, because every test used in NCLB is a multiple choice test.

NCLB does not mandate multiple choice tests. It mandates one test per year per subject area. The form of the test is left to the states to decide.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Cynthia

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #204 on: July 04, 2008, 08:48:10 PM »
It has everything to do with it, because every test used in NCLB is a multiple choice test.

NCLB does not mandate multiple choice tests. It mandates one test per year per subject area. The form of the test is left to the states to decide.

The states follow the guidelines of the NCLB.

Last time....NclB is up for review.

There's a reason for that...


Cynthia

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #205 on: July 04, 2008, 08:48:59 PM »
I'm assuming we'd point Cynthia to a McCain video to give an accurate representation of the war in Iraq, currently.  He "listens" to the troops and to the commanders, and that's all one needs for clarity, right??

Come on, Sirs...those videos speak for me.  I have told you that there are glitches, and I have shown you videos of teachers and administrators who resonate my view.  There is only hope for the furture now from Obama.

So, to flip that 180: the war in Iraq has had glitches, there are videos of military folks who resonate a similar view as my own, and that "the only hope for the future now is McCain"

Now, I'm not some McCain Kool-aide drinker and believe he's the best thing since sliced bread, but he at least has "listened" to the commanders on the ground, he has an intimate knowledge of military tactics & strategy.  And he, unlike this fella Obama, has made numerous efforts to work wth the other side, on a whole host of issues.  Can't say the same of that fella Obama now.  But watching his video's all that you needed, huh?  Interesting


You are arguing for the sake of arguing. We'll just see who wins the election and then we will see just how the system will be fixed. Then, I'll get back to you.

I don't mean to be picking on you Cynthia, but I think this is now the standard defense mechanism, when dealing with criticism you feel overwhelmed with.  Arguing for the sake of arguing??  All the while no specifics, no outline of what specifically needs fixed, or how its to be payed for....just vote for him and watch it all turn out just peachy, because........well, because he said so.  It's in the video



Nah, You aren't picking on me...You are blind, and I am frustrated with your ignorance on the reality of what is happening in the classroom. Your rhetoric is boring me. You are not capable of comprehending this subject matter....not in the least. 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 08:52:14 PM by Cynthia »

Amianthus

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #206 on: July 04, 2008, 08:59:48 PM »
The states follow the guidelines of the NCLB.

Then show me where in the NCLB it mandates multiple tests per year, and mandates that the test be multiple choice.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Cynthia

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #207 on: July 05, 2008, 01:13:04 AM »
I can only speak here as a classroom teacher. I am not capable of pulling stats and such out of a political hat without the search through the internet, but I sure will try.  For now, let me explain my thoughts and feelings here about the status of  public education since the act of NCLB came on stage. 
There are critical differences between the way children were taught years ago, and the way teachers were trained way before NCLB. In a word; the system was not broken.  Children were not so overly assessed. Children received a well rounded education. Children enjoyed learning. Children passed tests and if they didn?t, we helped them according to their individual level. That was the essence of my job. I loved being a teacher. ( I still do, don't get me wrong on THAT ONE)
The children learned more then, than they do now. imo
Now that the NCLB act has come down the pike, states are making decisions to improve scores, and bring children up in reading and math. Reading and math. Literally we teach nothing else but reading math and sometimes written language. The NCLB act has demanded this; Reading FIRST!
Reading first schools  are mandated to use specific research based programs. Teachers in these schools are to teach by a script and within a time frame. The assessments have yet to catch up with the curriculum completely, but I suppose through time they will align. But time is not on our side. It takes time to readjust the curriculum with the assessments. In the meantime, schools are placed on AYP. That is an issue I would hope Obama is able to address.
The children are stressed. They are not given the chance to fully receive that education that was "afforded" them years ago.   Now,they are fed information, instead of thinking for themselves (with the exception of math). The TERC Investigations program that we use in our district is one where children are taught to construct math instead of memorize facts. That program, however is so tightly scripted and has its own problems. Again, there is the issue of ironing out the time factor. But, in the meantime, as I say again, teachers and districts do not have time to work out curriculum kinks because the NCLB act wants results by a certain time line. The tests we give in our district (computerized) A2L. ASSESS TO LEARN does not align with the Terc Investigations curriculum. So, therefore children are assessed on things they have not been taught.

The standardized tests ; THE SBA does align with the Terc math and the Houghton Mifflin programs, but there again, that test is given to children in Feb. There are still three good months of school left, and we must test these children early so the technical dept has time to grade the computerized exams. The results are not even made known until the following fall.
The SBA test is a national standardized test. Are we going to see true results on these tests? I doubt it. The system is broken.
The bad news is that we were out of time--- yesterday!
Our class sizes are still large. The reading programs that we use are set up in such a way that we can not possibly arrange split level grades,(combo classes 2nd 3rd etc)--- lest the teacher is forced to teach TWO grades and TWO CURRICULUMS. I have taught combo classes in the past. The curriculum centered around the children individually, NOW, the scripts force a one size / grade curriculum. There is no time...there again as it is set up now.
I would like to see more teachers hired with more emphasis on implementation of the programs and differentiation of learning for all children. Does that take more money? Well, we have enough, according to some....but that $$ does not address the needs of the entire situation, as I see, anyway. I am only speaking about the changes in our schools in Alb. I would venture to bet that there are other districts in this country that are going through similar circumstances.

The children need tutoring, something the NCLB is supposed to offer. We have yet to see that. The money we spend on the tutoring comes from robbing Peter to pay Paul. We use whatever money we can scrape up to hire a part time tutor for a full time need.

We lose teachers each year because we can not afford to keep them. The way the district has apparently arranged the budget does not provide the type of assistance that is needed, or I would be jumping for joy right now. Instead, I see children who are
a)   receiving only  minimal reading instruction at their level
b)   very little time to differentiate
c)   very very little time to teach writing and the other subject areas. We have three PE? classes because of a federal program to keep kids fit. We have library and the rest of the curriculum is blocked out in time units.
d)   Receiving no or little help within the school day IN TERMS of specialized instruction based on level or need
e)   Special education students placed in a regular education class with one teacher and no assistant
f)   We have books, but very little money for consumables.
g)   There was a spending freeze placed on supplies this past spring in our district. There wasnt even enough toilet paper to go around. The custodians had a field day...d'oh.

Seriously, I attended a workshop at a middle school in early June, and the teachers first question was?.are we expected to bring our own toilet paper.
Now, that is obviously a budget issue that has little to do with NCLB, I agree. But schools need money.


Read on.

On March 2, 2005, the Connecticut State Department of Education released a limited study of the state-level administrative costs of implementing NCLB. A study of the related local administrative costs is due to be released in April 2005. The study was admittedly narrow and failed to consider the costs of raising student achievement to the 100 percent proficiency required by NCLB. It found that the total cost of implementing the administrative aspects of NCLB through fiscal year 2008 will be $112.2 million, of which the federal government is expected to provide $70.6 million. Therefore, Connecticut faces a shortfall of $41.6 million.

Under a state law passed in June 2004, Connecticut has prohibited the use of state funds to develop and administer any new tests required by NCLB

The second highest cost item was technical assistance to those schools and districts judged ?in need of improvement.? That cost totals $18 million through fiscal year 2008. Connecticut has estimated that as NCLB progresses, more schools will fail to make AYP, from the current number, 93, to 167 in fiscal year 2006, and still more in fiscal year 2008. Most other states have made similar predictions.
http://www.schoolfunding.info/news/federal/3-14-05ctnclbstudy.php3


How is the NCLB supporting individual states and their need to leave no child behind?
I find that the story grows more intricate as the facts surface. Here are some points? from articles that I googled earlier today. If you take notice, there are mandates, and ?approvals? put forth by the fed. Gov.


Another article  2005

In October, a national coalition of more than 20 organizations dealing with education, civil rights, children, disabilities and citizens? concerns called for major changes to NCLB. The coalition?s requested reforms included changes in the act?s progress measurements, sanctions and funding. Among other specific changes, the coalition is collectively requesting a raise in authorized levels of federal NCLB money to cover a substantial percentage of the costs that states and districts will incur in carrying out the remedies required under the NCLB in cases where students repeatedly demonstrate weak academic performance. The coalition also argues that the federal government has failed to "fully fund Title I" federal monies for disadvantaged children. Since these Title I monies are, along with other federal title monies, an important part of the money available to schools for NCLB, the coalition argues the NCLB is underfunded and is thereby failing "to ensure that 100 percent of eligible children are served."

Under the GAO?s reading of the law, states choose to accept federal funding in exchange for performing annual testing and offering a plethora of assistance to failing schools, such as tutoring, transportation to alternative schools of choice, mandatory hiring of highly qualified teachers and paraprofessionals, reopening failing schools as charter schools and replacing existing school administration and staff. Thus, Wells explains: "In order to receive federal financial assistance, schools and local districts agree to play by certain rules. Otherwise, they can decide to opt out of taking federal funds."

http://www.educationreport.org/pubs/mer/article.aspx?id=7021


IT seems that states are required to follow certain ?rules? under the NCLB in order to even RECEIVE funding.

More later....goodnight.

What a country!

Hey, I am tired after the night of fireworks....so pardon the typos...

I am NOT FINISHED. ;)
« Last Edit: July 05, 2008, 01:37:20 AM by Cynthia »

Cynthia

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #208 on: July 05, 2008, 01:44:59 AM »
"as do i. but nclb is not doing the harm. NCLB is words on a page

I forgot to add...BT

SO YOU AGREE that there are issues......the big daddy IS THE NCLB act, BT.

It's the root.

Not the teachers. You have little faith in others who have devoted years to the job of teaching.

You are too quick to judge others based on your own bias, as does Sirs. Ami just wants to beat the same horse. ha! Sorry. M. . . but that's the way I see it.
Myopic view.....cynical....hmmm, makes not a leader either.




BT,I maintain that you would NOT make a quality HIGH level politician...sorry, unless you learn to listen to all sides of an issue and hear a person's truth - based on first hand experience....The perfect politician imo....will do *-----just that*


Instead you jump to  make a decision  and judgement based on partisan ideals.





I can't see any politician taking the time to listen to the grunts on such issues as this... anytime soon.

Teachers are soliders in a way. We fight the fight on the battlefield.
Support mean more than bureaucratic tactical rhetoric.

Night all...I am spent. Will visit this issue again soon.

off to a few days of vacation.
Cynthia
« Last Edit: July 05, 2008, 01:56:26 AM by Cynthia »

BT

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Re: Obama perfect?
« Reply #209 on: July 05, 2008, 01:48:49 AM »
Quote
Not the teachers. You have little faith in others who have devoted years to the job of teaching.

I have little faith in those whose arguments are all across the board.