Author Topic: Sometimes it's not about "freedom of speech," but about freedom  (Read 11096 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: Sometimes it's not about "freedom of speech," but about freedom
« Reply #75 on: October 05, 2007, 12:16:51 PM »
<<actually adultery is a funny situation
it effects more lives negatively anything else>>

When you compare the number of adulterous Presidents and candidates with the number of homosexual Presidents and candidates, you'll soon see which "sin" the public takes more seriously. 

And yet the essence of adultery is betrayal.  The essence of homosexuality is  finding one's own sex more attractive than the opposite sex.  Like BFD, eh? 

sirs

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Re: Sometimes it's not about "freedom of speech," but about freedom
« Reply #76 on: October 05, 2007, 01:39:46 PM »
And the essesce of Pedophilia is finding sex with children more attractive than with adults.  And the essence of beastiality is finding sex with animals more attractive than humans.  No choice in their behaviors either, right?      ::)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: Sometimes it's not about "freedom of speech," but about freedom
« Reply #77 on: October 05, 2007, 01:44:59 PM »
And the essesce of Pedophilia is finding sex with children more attractive than with adults.  And the essence of beastiality is finding sex with animals more attractive than humans.  No choice in their behaviors either, right?      ::)

The issue there is that another being gets severely damaged, and no there is no choice for the child or the animal - that is exactly why it is a problem and a criminal issue.

Who gets harmed when two adult women decide to have a relationship and wish to be married into a legally binding monogamous contract?

As for adultery, that can take place within any framework of sexuality, ask Senator Craig's wife or Governor McGreevey's wife. Adultery is a completely different issue.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
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kimba1

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Re: Sometimes it's not about "freedom of speech," but about freedom
« Reply #78 on: October 05, 2007, 02:05:45 PM »
actually on matter of pedophilia
it`s also partly a society matter
the age of consent was much lower is the past
remember the grampa stories of doing great stupid things at the age of 8 to support the families
what people rarely mention is alot of perverted old men married really young girls then also
and it was accepted.
brook shields made a living on these guys in the 80`s
I think consent should be 21
I don`t think any teenager should have sex
I`ve never recall any teen mom glad they had sex in their teen years

sirs

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Re: Sometimes it's not about "freedom of speech," but about freedom
« Reply #79 on: October 05, 2007, 02:25:04 PM »
And the essesce of Pedophilia is finding sex with children more attractive than with adults.  And the essence of beastiality is finding sex with animals more attractive than humans.  No choice in their behaviors either, right?      ::)

The issue there is that another being gets severely damaged

And you know this because....?  Wouldn't children enjoy a good fling?  Especially if it's done in a very gentle, pleasant manner?  And animals appear to be humping all the time.  You see comedies with dogs in them being used for precisely that purpose.  And the point remains that of the person initiating the effort, the CHOICE they're making in doing sex X to recipient(s) Y.  Do fellas have an inibaility to refrain from having multiple wives.....you advocating a genetic disposition towards polygamy??  No one "got damaged" there or didn't have a choice


Adultery is a completely different issue.

NOT at all.  BOTH require an active choice of the person acting out the sex act, be it sex with the person of the same sex, or sex with anyone else, while married.  And until you can demonstrate some hard scientific facts, vs Psych studies on why one feels the way they do, my point remains completely valid
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: Sometimes it's not about "freedom of speech," but about freedom
« Reply #80 on: October 05, 2007, 03:11:07 PM »
And you know this because....?  Wouldn't children enjoy a good fling?  Especially if it's done in a very gentle, pleasant manner?

Well, we could begin with any number of psychological studies on children who have been sexually abused. I'm sure there is plenty of anecdotal evidence as well.

Quote
And animals appear to be humping all the time.  You see comedies with dogs in them being used for precisely that purpose.

Comedies are movies, not reality. Animals "hump" of their own volition and biological instinct.

Quote
And the point remains that of the person initiating the effort, the CHOICE they're making in doing sex X to recipient(s) Y.  Do fellas have an inibaility to refrain from having multiple wives.....you advocating a genetic disposition towards polygamy??  No one "got damaged" there or didn't have a choice

Having multiple partners is not illegal either, just having multiple marriage contracts (bigamy).

"Doing sex to recipients" - And therein lies the difference Sirs. What you describe is rape.

Two adult women having a relationship of their own volition is not harming anyone. Do you think those women sat down and decided that they were attracted to other women? That they wanted to come home to another woman?

Or are you suggesting that their attraction is so unnatural to you that you are demanding they live a life of celibacy for your tastes?



Adultery is a completely different issue.

NOT at all.  BOTH require an active choice of the person acting out the sex act, be it sex with the person of the same sex, or sex with anyone else, while married.  And until you can demonstrate some hard scientific facts, vs Psych studies on why one feels the way they do, my point remains completely valid
[/quote]
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
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sirs

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Re: Sometimes it's not about "freedom of speech," but about freedom
« Reply #81 on: October 05, 2007, 03:31:50 PM »
And you know this because....?  Wouldn't children enjoy a good fling?  Especially if it's done in a very gentle, pleasant manner?

Well, we could begin with any number of psychological studies on children who have been sexually abused.

You must have missed the part where I clearly stated if done in a gentle and pleasant manner.  I'm not referring to the animals that sexually abuse children.  Of course, following your logic, they couldn't help themselves either though, right?


Quote
And animals appear to be humping all the time.  You see comedies with dogs in them being used for precisely that purpose.

Comedies are movies, not reality. Animals "hump" of their own volition and biological instinct.

The reference to comedies was in reinforcing what even you conceded, something they just do, and probably enjoy


Quote
And the point remains that of the person initiating the effort, the CHOICE they're making in doing sex X to recipient(s) Y.  Do fellas have an inibaility to refrain from having multiple wives.....you advocating a genetic disposition towards polygamy??  No one "got damaged" there or didn't have a choice

Having multiple partners is not illegal either, just having multiple marriage contracts (bigamy).

And once again, I've NEVER focused on if something is illegal or not, so I'd appreciate if you'd stop interjecting it in, as if it is.  So, do those folks have a genetic disposition that obligates them to have multiple wives??  That's the logic of yours, we're following.  Or are you going to rationalize how wanting sex with multiple wives that is indeed choice, but wanting sex with the same gender isn't?


"Doing sex to recipients" - And therein lies the difference Sirs. What you describe is rape.

Not if the child is willing, not if multiple wives are willing, not of the married husband is willing, not if the animals are initiating the humping


are you suggesting that their attraction is so unnatural to you that you are demanding they live a life of celibacy for your tastes?

Apparently Js has gone over to the dark side.  I bet you'll not find ONE quote from me that declares how I'm demanding anyone be celibate for "my tastes".  The only "demanding" going on around here is (and without ANY scientific data) that I change MY religious beliefs, that I change my definition of marriage, and that I accept the act of Homosexuality as perfectly acceptable.  That ain't gonna happen, simple as that.  What anyone wants to do with another consenting adult, be they hetero or homo, is their CHOICES alone.  Just don't expect me to respect it or even consider it normal.  It's immoral, right up there with Adultery


"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Henny

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Re: Sometimes it's not about "freedom of speech," but about freedom
« Reply #82 on: October 05, 2007, 03:40:06 PM »
You must have missed the part where I clearly stated if done in a gentle and pleasant manner.  I'm not referring to the animals that sexually abuse children.  Of course, following your logic, they couldn't help themselves either though, right?

I don't think that "gentle and pleasant" make it any less abusive when a child is involved.

Michael Tee

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Re: Sometimes it's not about "freedom of speech," but about freedom
« Reply #83 on: October 05, 2007, 03:53:23 PM »
<<And the essesce of Pedophilia is finding sex with children more attractive than with adults.  And the essence of beastiality is finding sex with animals more attractive than humans.  No choice in their behaviors either, right?  >>

The thread originally focused on consenting adults of the same sex who want to get married.  Of whom I happen to know two couples, who seem reasonably law-abiding as far as I can tell.  One is a Crown Attorney in fact, which is the Canadian equivalent of the District Attorney or D.A.  For some reason I'd prefer not to explore in depth, sirs is compulsively trying to drag perversions such as pedophilia and bestiality into the discussion, which is getting a little too weird for me.

When you want to bring this discussion back to real-world levels, sirs, please let me know.

_JS

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Re: Sometimes it's not about "freedom of speech," but about freedom
« Reply #84 on: October 05, 2007, 04:06:35 PM »
You must have missed the part where I clearly stated if done in a gentle and pleasant manner.  I'm not referring to the animals that sexually abuse children.  Of course, following your logic, they couldn't help themselves either though, right?

I'm starting to find your responses a little bizarre. If you've known anyone who has suffered through sexual abuse as a child Sirs, you'll know that it is absolutely devastating. The "manner" in which it is done is irrelevant. I think you might ought to learn a little more about the psychology of this topic, you're reply seems to be extremely naive (at least I'm hoping that's what it is).

Quote
So, do those folks have a genetic disposition that obligates them to have multiple wives??  That's the logic of yours, we're following.  Or are you going to rationalize how wanting sex with multiple wives that is indeed choice, but wanting sex with the same gender isn't?

Wanting sex with multiple women? Oh I think that's a common heterosexual male line of thought. I'd be a little worried if a man hasn't thought about that at some point in his life, especially in his most formative years. But yeah, that is a choice on whether one acts on those issues once he is in the confines of a marital contract, sure. Genetics does not predispose someone one way or another towards contract law, Sirs.

On the other hand, basic physical attraction is an issue of genetic predisposition. The fact that a man is attracted to women is the subject of genetics, at least partially genetics and probably psychology as well.

Quote
Apparently Js has gone over to the dark side.

Spare me the self-sacrificing crap.

If a gay person came out to you, what would you tell her? Obviously you believe her attraction to women is a sin. Now what? She needs to choose to be attracted to men?




"Doing sex to recipients" - And therein lies the difference Sirs. What you describe is rape.

Not if the child is willing, not if multiple wives are willing, not of the married husband is willing, not if the animals are initiating the humping


are you suggesting that their attraction is so unnatural to you that you are demanding they live a life of celibacy for your tastes?

Apparently Js has gone over to the dark side.  I bet you'll not find ONE quote from me that declares how I'm demanding anyone be celibate for "my tastes".  The only "demanding" going on around here is (and without ANY scientific data) that I change MY religious beliefs, that I change my definition of marriage, and that I accept the act of Homosexuality as perfectly acceptable.  That ain't gonna happen, simple as that.  What anyone wants to do with another consenting adult, be they hetero or homo, is their CHOICES alone.  Just don't expect me to respect it or even consider it normal.  It's immoral, right up there with Adultery



[/quote]
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

kimba1

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Re: Sometimes it's not about "freedom of speech," but about freedom
« Reply #85 on: October 05, 2007, 04:19:08 PM »
actually if homosexuality is lumped with all the others (pedophilia,bestiality)
you dimish your arguement
these are very difrerent subject which I have never even once heard of overlapping
if your just to say you don`t care for it for religious reason than you have merit

Michael Tee

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Re: Sometimes it's not about "freedom of speech," but about freedom
« Reply #86 on: October 05, 2007, 04:23:41 PM »
It seems to me that the bizarre lengths and fantastical comparisons that sirs is grasping at is probably the best possible indicator that there is absolutely nothing wrong (in the real world) with finally permitting same-sex marriages, and that the primary obstacle to them is primarily being determined by the inner demons of the religious right.  There is just no logic, no rhyme nor reason in his contorted arguments, least of all that he is required to give up HIS religious beliefs in order for gay marriage to happen.  How is he possibly prevented from believing what he wants to about gay people or homosexuality just because the state decides to legalize gay marriage?

_JS

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Re: Sometimes it's not about "freedom of speech," but about freedom
« Reply #87 on: October 05, 2007, 04:26:25 PM »
How is he possibly prevented from believing what he wants to about gay people or homosexuality just because the state decides to legalize gay marriage?

Good point. My religious convictions are very much opposed to the death penalty, yet my state and many others find it perfectly acceptable.

That has not prevented me from practicing my religion whatsoever, not that I don't wish to see the death penalty abolished (along with abortion).

That argument has no merit at all.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
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   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: Sometimes it's not about "freedom of speech," but about freedom
« Reply #88 on: October 05, 2007, 04:30:44 PM »
You must have missed the part where I clearly stated if done in a gentle and pleasant manner.  I'm not referring to the animals that sexually abuse children.  Of course, following your logic, they couldn't help themselves either though, right?

I'm starting to find your responses a little bizarre. If you've known anyone who has suffered through sexual abuse as a child Sirs, you'll know that it is absolutely devastating.

Absolutely, to many.  My point remains that if said animal actually wanted to be kind, gentle, and in no way "abused" the child, the child may likely enjoy it, even if confused as to what they actually were enjoying.  You're still trying to make this arguement that of criminal activity, while I've always been referencing the choices one makes to follow-thru on their urges

                        

Quote
So, do those folks have a genetic disposition that obligates them to have multiple wives??  That's the logic of yours, we're following.  Or are you going to rationalize how wanting sex with multiple wives that is indeed choice, but wanting sex with the same gender isn't?

Wanting sex with multiple women? Oh I think that's a common heterosexual male line of thought. I'd be a little worried if a man hasn't thought about that at some point in his life, especially in his most formative years.

Thank you for helping validate my point......thought about it, but did the ACT upon it....meaning is it hardwired, where they have no choice but to covet, have sex, and marry multiple women at the same time??  I know I never did.  I guess I'm an anomoly?


But yeah, that is a choice on whether one acts on those issues once he is in the confines of a marital contract, sure. Genetics does not predispose someone one way or another towards contract law, Sirs.

I never said it did (again trying to make this a legal matter).  STOP, ok.  DISREGARD ALL LEGAL ASPECTS & interjections to this entire discussion, if you don't mind.  Now, is it one's genetic predispositon to have sex and marry (shack up, if you want) multiple women?  to have sex with children?  to have sex with animals?

  
Quote
Apparently Js has gone over to the dark side.

Spare me the self-sacrificing crap.  If a gay person came out to you, what would you tell her? Obviously you believe her attraction to women is a sin. Now what? She needs to choose to be attracted to men?

No, she needs to to try and not convince me that it's perfectly ok.  Get the diff??      ::)



"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

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Re: Sometimes it's not about "freedom of speech," but about freedom
« Reply #89 on: October 05, 2007, 04:32:56 PM »
Quote
Thank you for helping validate my point......thought about it, but did the ACT upon it....meaning is it hardwired, where they have no choice but to covet, have sex, and marry multiple women at the same time??  I know I never did.  I guess I'm an anomoly?

So a woman attracted to other women should do what, in your opinion? You still have yet to answer the question.

She should try and force herself to live with a man?

She should live a celibate life?

What would you advise her to do?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.