DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: The_Professor on October 09, 2006, 05:36:01 PM
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A Partisan Piece for your Discussion:
The Clinton Legacy: North Korea's Bomb
Dave Eberhart, NewsMax.com
Monday, Oct. 9, 2006
Flashback: North Korea Nukes Part of Clinton Legacy
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North Korea's first detonation of a nuclear weapon may have taken place during the watch of George W. Bush — but it was under the Clinton administration's watch that the communist regime began gathering necessary materials and constructing the bomb.
As Western powers race to confirm that North Korea did in fact explode a nuclear device in Gilju, a remote region in the Hamgyong province, some see it as a culmination of weak U.S. action during the 1990s that led to this fateful day.
Fateful Beginnings
After entering into an agreement with the United States in 1994, the Clinton administration ignored evidence the North Koreans were violating the agreement and continuing to build a nuclear weapon. "In July of 2002, documentary evidence was found in the form of purchase orders for the materials necessary to enrich uranium," NewsMax's James Hirsen previously reported.
"In October 2002, Assistant Secretary of State James Kelly met with his North Korean counterpart for scheduled talks. Kelly confronted North Korea with the tangible evidence of its duplicity. After a day of outright denial, North Korea abruptly reversed its position and defiantly acknowledged a secret nuclear program."
Timeline of a Nuclear Bomb
A review of recent history shows that that the Clinton administration gave up a clear and perhaps last best chance to nip the North Korean bomb in the bud:
1985: North Korea signs the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
1989: The Central Intelligence Agency discovers the North Koreans are building a reprocessing facility — a reactor capable of converting fuel rods into weapons-grade plutonium. The fuel rods were extracted 10 years before from that nation's Yongbyon reactor.
The rods represent a shortcut to enriched plutonium and an atomic bomb.
Spring, 1994: A year into President Clinton's first term, North Korea prepares to remove the Yongbyon fuel rods from their storage site. North Korea expels international weapons inspectors and withdraws from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
Clinton asks the United Nations Security Council to consider sanctions. North Korean spokesmen proclaim such sanctions would cause war.
The Pentagon draws up plans to send 50,000 troops to South Korea — along with 400 war planes, 50 ships, Apache helicopters, Bradley fighting vehicles, and Patriot missiles. An advance force of 250 soldiers is sent in to set up headquarters for the expanded force.
Clinton balks and sets up a diplomatic back-channel to end the crisis — former President Jimmy Carter. Exceeding instructions, Carter negotiates the outlines of a treaty and announces the terms live on CNN.
Oct. 21, 1994: The United States and North Korea sign a formal accord based on those outlines, called the Agreed Framework. Under its terms:
North Korea promises to renew its commitment to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, lock up the fuel rods, and let inspectors back in to monitor the facility.
The United States agrees — with financial backing from South Korea and Japan — that it will provide two light-water nuclear reactors for electricity, send a large supply of fuel oil, and that it will not invade North Korea.
Upon delivery of the first light-water reactor, inspections of suspected North Korean nuclear sites were supposed to start. After the second reactor arrived, North Korea was supposed to ship its fuel rods out of the country.
The two countries also agreed to lower trade barriers and install ambassadors in each other's capitals — with the United States providing full assurances that it would never use nuclear weapons against North Korea.
(None of the above came to pass. Congress did not make the financial commitment — neither did South Korea. The light-water reactors were never funded. The enumerated steps toward normalization were never taken.)
Jan. 2002: In President Bush's State of the Union Address, he famously labels North Korea, Iran, and Iraq as an "axis of evil."
Oct., 2002: Officials from the U.S. State Department fly to Pyongyang, where that government admits it had acquired centrifuges for processing highly enriched uranium, which could be used for building nuclear weapons.
It is now clear to all parties that the promised reactors are never going to be built. Normalization of relations fizzles.
The CIA learns that North Korea may have been acquiring centrifuges for enriching uranium since the late 1990s — probably from Pakistan.
Oct. 20, 2002: Bush announces that the United States is formally withdrawing from the Carter-brokered 1994 agreement.
The United States. halts oil supplies to North Korea and urges other countries to cut off all economic relations with Pyongyang.
Dec., 2002: North Korea expels the international weapons inspectors, restarts the nuclear reactor at Yongbyon, and unlocks the container holding the fuel rods.
Jan. 10, 2003: North Korea withdraws from the Non-Proliferation Treaty — noting, however, that there would be a change of position if the U.S. resumed its obligations under the Agreed Framework and signed a non-aggression pledge.
March, 2003: President Bush orders several B-1 and B-52 bombers to the U.S. Air Force base in Guam — within range of North Korea.
April, 2003: North Korea's deputy foreign minister announces that his country now has "deterrent" nuclear weapons.
May, 2003: Bush orders the Guam-based aircraft back to their home bases.
October, 2003: The North Koreans announce they have reprocessed all 8,000 of their fuel rods and solved the technical problems of converting the plutonium into nuclear bombs.
source: NewsMax
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Why you insist on treating us to this bullshit is beyond me, Professor. Anyhow, I thought this was Truman's legacy!
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Read the very first line of the post, Domer:
"A Partisan Piece for your Discussion:"
Many times, I find articles to post to stimulate discussion, whether I personally agree with them or not, ok?
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Whether Plutonium or enriched Urainium the explosion of an A-Bomb requires that some of the most precious meatal on Earth be destroyed.
The resorces required to make this bomb would have bought dozens of shiploads of grain .
Some estimates of the famine deaths in North Korea in the last fifteen years top two million , we can't really know they do not publish real information on such a subject.
But in the region of China adjoining the border of North Korea there is a serious problem with Koreans crossing the border with no ones permission and seeking work , depressing the wages of the Chineese.
How could Clinton , Carter or even Bush have anticipated that a nation so desprately poor that large numbers of its people are dieing of famine , where a Chineese Laborers wage looks good enough to migrate for, would choose to blow up such a lot of wealth?
In time of famine wealth is life , who will this wepon feed?
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Clinton legacy?
Seems to me they took umbrage at being included in Bush's 'Axis of Evil', saw what happened to Iraq, and that's when the real problems started. relations with Kim Jong-Il under Clinton weren't great, but they deteriorated to this level under Bush.
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There is an old saying about not pointing a gun at someone unless you plan to use it.
N. Korea, if they have atomoc weaponry, and that is not exactly clear, is certainly pointing a gun at countries withn reach of its missile technology.
Those countries were involved in the multilatral talks over the last 6 years.
And those countries will eventually have to deal with this threat as it escalates.
Diplomacy has the advantage of buying time for all concerned. Time for N. Korea to reconsider its path or to maximize its bargaining position. For Japan and South Korea it buys the time to develope countermeasures if needed. For China and Russia it gives them time to apply more diplomatic pressures. And for the US it alleviates the need to be the sole policeman of the world. I don't see the UN as a player in this.
Personally i am more concerned with N. Korea's counterfeiting and sale of missile technology than i am with their chest thumping about nukes.
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Excellent point, BT. North Korea desperately needs hard currency and an excellent method might be selling thier nuclear knowledge to scumbags. How might we deter this?
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There is an old saying about not pointing a gun at someone unless you plan to use it.
There is another old saying, that God created man, but Sam Colt made them equal. Perhaps North Korea sees having 'nucular' weapons as the international equivalent of that.
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I'm sure N.Korea feels justified in its pursuit. Apparently you agree with them.
But when push comes to shove i wouldn't bet on N. Korea coming out on top in any war with its neighbors or us for that matter.
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Apparently you agree with them.
How do you figure? Just because I can see both sides of an argument does not mean I am taking either side. I'm just making the example that, if you want to quote old homilies, you can find one to fit just about any circumstance.
Kind of like verses in the Bible.
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But when push comes to shove i wouldn't bet on N. Korea coming out on top in any war with its neighbors or us for that matter.
It isn't about coming out on top. For a despotic regime like North Korea, it is all about survival. An atomic weapon simply adds to the guarantee of survival. Look at the threats they are receiving now. Sanctions? Isolation? How are you going to further isolate the most isolated nation in the world?
hnumpah is correct, I believe, that this is primarily a defensive move. North Korea is saying to the rest of the world: "You may hate us. You may wish to be rid of us. But if you try anything, then the blood of Tokyo, or Seoul is on your hands. We may miss. But we might not. Are you willing to take that risk?"
Sure, North Korea is likely not to win the war - but at what cost are you willing to invade them and find out? I think that is the ultimate question. We have a 60 year-old technology that more nations will discover and pursue. The world may look quite different in two or three decades, where interventionist policies won't be so easily undertaken.
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I'm not sure an invasion would be necessary.
And i don't think this is a defensive posture. I think it is a ratcheting up of the anty as it goes about its gangster business of extortion.
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There is an old saying about not pointing a gun at someone unless you plan to use it.
There is another old saying, that God created man, but Sam Colt made them equal. Perhaps North Korea sees having 'nucular' weapons as the international equivalent of that.
Or, since no one has demonstrated any overt act of provocation that would require such a need, perhaps his blowing up of a nucular dud, is simply to get more bargaining power in getting sanctions lifted, or perhaps to negotiate a way to get Clinton to give him some more nucular reactors
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Or, since no one has demonstrated any overt act of provocation that would require such a need...
Um, you mean, like lumping North Korea with with Iraq and Iran as part of some mythical 'Axis of Evil', then invading Iraq, and making threatening noises against Iran? Sure, Kim's a nutjob, but if you extend that line of thinking and consider the possibility he might be a paranoid nutjob, you can see where he might figure it is in his best interests to arm himself as best he can, just in case.
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you mean, like lumping North Korea with with Iraq and Iran as part of some mythical 'Axis of Evil'
And "talk" now amounts to putting Missile guided Cruisers off it's coast, and F/A 18's flying along it's border? Reagan's "tear down this wall" speech is pretty much the same thing as what Bush stated. I don't recall Russia conducting a bunch of nucular tests in preparation for the impending U.S. attack
making threatening noises against Iran?
The "threatening noises" are in specific RESPONSE to their drive for a nucular weapon. Not the other way a round, I'm afraid H
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The "threatening noises" are in specific RESPONSE to their drive for a nucular weapon. Not the other way a round, I'm afraid H
Which is supposed to reassure North Korea how, exactly?
Never mind.
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I don't think the North Koreans slowed their reasearch into Atomic wepons down for Carter and Clinton , diplomacy for them is a matter of what s mine is mine and what is yours is negotiable. Unless they could see the future when they started to build atomic bombs , President Bush's "axis of evil " comment couldn't have made any diffrence.
The time to act militarily is immediately , it takes time to refine Urainium or extract Plutonium , they have the fewest number of atomic devices right now as they will ever have. If we strike them with very heavy bombing they will never assemble another one .
No, we do not have enough troop strength availible to occupy North Korea and establish controll and order.
We do have enough air power to make truck travel on the road to the nuclear assembly plant absolutely impossible. That is all we really need to do , you cant carry much nuclear fuel in a knapsack.
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The time to act militarily is immediately , it takes time to refine Urainium or extract Plutonium , they have the fewest number of atomic devices right now as they will ever have. If we strike them with very heavy bombing they will never assemble another one .
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We should not act immediately. It would be a mistake for the U.S. to be fighting on too many fronts at the same time. I believe this is a good opportunity for the U.S. to see what China's resolve is.
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Which is supposed to reassure North Korea how, exactly?
Considering we've made no "threats" at them specifically, considering that the Iraq invasion was predicated on their blatant non-compliance with UN resolutions, considering that "noises" again are in RESPONSE to the threat that Iran poses to not just Israel, but the entire Middle East upon their becoming nucular, gives zilch reason for North Korea to think we're about to invade. At least to sane & rationally minded folks
Never mind.
Not interested in substantive debate? Whatever floats your boat.
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The time to act militarily is immediately , it takes time to refine Urainium or extract Plutonium , they have the fewest number of atomic devices right now as they will ever have. If we strike them with very heavy bombing they will never assemble another one .
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We should not act immediately. It would be a mistake for the U.S. to be fighting on too many fronts at the same time. I believe this is a good opportunity for the U.S. to see what China's resolve is.
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Why would this be too many frounts?
I am not suggesting that we send in any troops at all , aircraft only like in Bosnia coulds shut the Country down, There would be not a lightbulb that worked in all of North Korea on day two.
Waiting for a while will allow them to build a few A-bombs , what is the argument for waiting?
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At least to sane & rationally minded folks
Kinda brings us back to Kim being a nutjob, dunnit?
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At least to sane & rationally minded folks
Kinda brings us back to Kim being a nutjob, dunnit?
No doubt
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"The time to act militarily is immediately , it takes time to refine Urainium or extract Plutonium , they have the fewest number of atomic devices right now as they will ever have. If we strike them with very heavy bombing they will never assemble another one .
No, we do not have enough troop strength availible to occupy North Korea and establish controll and order.
We do have enough air power to make truck travel on the road to the nuclear assembly plant absolutely impossible. That is all we really need to do , you cant carry much nuclear fuel in a knapsack."
I totally concur. But then, I also advocated this with Iran. However, the window of opportunity to act militarily is quickly diminishing.
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The time to act militarily is immediately , it takes time to refine Urainium or extract Plutonium , they have the fewest number of atomic devices right now as they will ever have. If we strike them with very heavy bombing they will never assemble another one .
No, we do not have enough troop strength availible to occupy North Korea and establish controll and order.
We do have enough air power to make truck travel on the road to the nuclear assembly plant absolutely impossible. That is all we really need to do , you cant carry much nuclear fuel in a knapsack.
You're damn straight we don't have enough military power to occupy North Korea and establish law and order. Hell, we can't occupy Iraq and establish even a semblance of law and order. As we all know, Iraq had no WMD's. What are you going to do with North Korea's nuclear weapon? Condemn it strongly and threaten it with isolation?
Personally, I think KJI gets a bit of a kick out of calling Bush's bluffs. Remember? "We will not tolerate nuclear weapons in North Korea." I think Iran and North Korea know that nuclear weapons are a method to preserve their future. We won't attack North Korea. We haven't the military means and are spending enough money on Iraq. At the rate it is going, I think Iran will get their nuclear weapon within the next decade as well.
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This reminds me of a famous scifi movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still". Remember the message there? Isn't it still applicable today?
see http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0043456/
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This reminds me of a famous scifi movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still". Remember the message there? Isn't it still applicable today?
Interestingly enough, I watched that movie on Monday (TiVo grabbed it for me a few weeks ago). Yeah, that message is pretty eternal.
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You're damn straight we don't have enough military power to occupy North Korea and establish law and order.
Why should we want to ?
We just want them to be helpless to make bombs , that doesn't require that we establish a new order in North Korea , disrupting the order that they have would do fine.
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Kinda brings us back to Kim being a nutjob, dunnit?
(http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/061010/harville.jpg)
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(http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/061010/asay.gif)
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(http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/061010/wasserman.gif)
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(http://cagle.msnbc.com/working/061010/wasserman.gif)
Direct talks resulted in a bomb programme , six party talks resulted in a bomb programme.
What exactly does Kim Ill Jung want to say to us that he cannot say in frount of the Chineese?
If they wanted a deal where they got electrical generation with low grade fuel and a few tonns of rice and wheat and garuntees of non-interference , they could have honored the deal that they made with Carter and Clinton in direct talks.
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Josh Marshall:
"Failure" =1994-2002 -- Era of Clinton 'Agreed Framework': No plutonium production. All existing plutonium under international inspection. No bomb.
"Success" = 2002-2006 -- Bush Policy Era: Active plutonium production. No international inspections of plutonium stocks. Nuclear warhead detonated.
Face it. They ditched an imperfect but working policy. They replaced it with nothing. Now North Korea is a nuclear state.
Facts hurt. So do nukes.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com
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And don't forget the 2 nuclear power plants that Clinton pretty much gave Kim, that without them, NK would have never had the possibility of making "the bomb", in the 1st place.
Way to go, Bill. That's right up there with how"effective" he was at taking out Usama, the multiple times they had the chance. What a legacy
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And don't forget the 2 nuclear power plants that Clinton pretty much gave Kim, that without them, NK would have never had the possibility of making "the bomb", in the 1st place.
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Clinton never gave anything nuclear to Kim. Nada, Bupkiss, Zilch.
The gist of the Clinton agreem,ent was that in return for agreeing NOT to refine Unranium, Kim would receive light water reactors to produce electricity. These could not be used tpo produce any sort of bomb-making substance.
Then JuniorDolt was "elected" and cancelled all provisions for any deal with North Korea. North Korea received no nuclear anything.
Kim felt that he had been screwed, and since he had received nothing, his part of the deal was invalid.
So he built the bomb, and tested it, or at least that's what he wanted us to believe he did.
How is Kim's nuclear deterrent different from that of the US?
Why should Kim not feel that he was screwed, since he received nothing in return for his agreement?
This is just more typical crap from the Rove propaganda machine.
I am not ducking. I am not covering.
Juniorbush will only stop lying when he is deceased.
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Then JuniorDolt was "elected" and cancelled all provisions for any deal with North Korea. North Korea received no nuclear anything.
Actually, according to the deal Clinton made, Japan would provide over $1 billion in funding for the construction of the 2 light water reactors. That funding was then retracted by Japan when N. Korea lauched two missiles over Japan on 31 August 98. It was that event which eventually killed the deal.
Why should Kim not feel that he was screwed, since he received nothing in return for his agreement?
Maybe he shouldn't have lobbed missiles over one of the countries paying for the reactors, huh?
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Actually, according to the deal Clinton made, Japan would provide over $1 billion in funding for the construction of the 2 light water reactors. That funding was then retracted by Japan when N. Korea lauched two missiles over Japan on 31 August 98. It was that event which eventually killed the deal.
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This isn't true.
Nothing was lobbed "over Japan".
The current nuclear status is mostly due to the typical incompetence of Juniorbush and his puppeteers at understanding Kim and dealing diplomatically with himA good diplomat can even achieve success with a buffoon. But the fact is that both Kim and and the Juniorbushies are utter buffoons of the lowest order.
This crap where Juniorbush says that he wants to resolve problems diplomatically (with Iraq, then wirth Iran and N. Korea) and then refuses to talk is idiocy of the worst sort. Appointing an annoying thug like Boulton is typical for these loons.
If there were any justice in the world, a mob of several million indignant Americans would drag these clowns Juniorbush, Cheney, Rice, Rummy, Rove, and Mitch McConnell and Henry "The Thing that Will Not Die" Kissinger and out of their cushy offices, like the pestilent maggots that they are, tie them to poles, coat them with tar and feathers, running them out of town on the rail, leaving them somewhere beyond the Beltway. It's what they deserve.
That, or drowning their sorry butts in the Reflecting Pool. What a bunch of utterly worthless cowardly chickenhawks they are.
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Feel better now Hoof? ;D
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This isn't true.
Nothing was lobbed "over Japan".
"On August 31, 1998, North Korea launched what was initially believed to be a two-stage Taepodong 1 (TD1) missile eastward over Japan. The first stage of the missile fell into international waters roughly 400 miles east of the launch site, and the second stage flew over Japanese territory, splashing down in the Pacific Ocean approximately 930 miles from the launch site." (emphasis added)
Full Article (http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countries/nkorea/bm98.html)
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Observe that this article, from some source I have never heard of, claimed that a stage of a rocket intended to LAUNCH A SATELLITE went over JAPANESE TERRITORY. NOT JAPAN, Japanese Territory, which might mean some stray islet out there or someplace within the fishing waters.
This article is obvious propaganda. Any dunce can tell from the way it is worded.
The fact is that Kim got NOTHING for his promise, and so why should he keep it? Why?
If you pay for something and do not get it, do you pay for it anyway?
It makes sense to me for North Korea rto claim to have nukes, just as it makes sense for Israel to have them.
If it actually went over Japan itself, and had been some sort of agressive weapon, and not a failed attempt at launching a satellite, that might have been something dangerous.
But it wasn't.
And Juniordunce and his puppeteers really do deserve tarring, feathering and being run out of town on a rail. And should it happen, I would rejoice heartily.
The worst administration since Jefferson Davis.
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This article is obvious propaganda. Any dunce can tell from the way it is worded.
Thank you again, Mr Obvious.