DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: Kramer on September 03, 2008, 11:52:38 AM
-
On October 26, 1967, on his 23rd mission over North Vietnam, a surface-to-air missile slammed into John's A-4 Skyhawk jet, blowing it out of the sky.
When John ejected, part of the plane hit him -- breaking his right knee, his left arm, his right arm in three places.
An angry mob got to him.
A rifle butt broke his shoulder.
A bayonet pierced his ankle and his groin.
They took him to the Hanoi Hilton, where he lapsed in and out of consciousness for days. He was offered medical care for his injuries if he would give up military information in return.
John McCain said "No".
After days of neglect, covered in grime, lying in his own waste in a filthy room, a doctor attempted to set John's right arm without success ... and without anesthesia.
His other broken bones and injuries were not treated. John developed a high fever, dysentery. He weighed barely a hundred pounds.
Expecting him to die, his captors placed him in a cell with two other POWs who also expected him to die.
But with their help, John McCain fought on.
He persevered.
So then they put him in solitary confinement...for over two years.
Isolation ... incredible heat beating on a tin roof. A light bulb in his cell burning 24 hours a day.
Boarded-up cell windows blocking any breath of fresh air.
The oppressive heat causing boils the size of baseballs under his arms.
The outside world limited to what he could see through a crack in a door.
We hear a lot of talk about hope.
John McCain knows about hope. That's all he had to survive on. For propaganda purposes, his captors offered to let him go home.
John McCain refused.
He refused to leave ahead of men who'd been there longer.
He refused to abandon his conscience and his honor, even for his freedom.
He refused, even though his captors warned him, "It will be very bad for you."
They were right.
It was.
The guards cracked ribs, broke teeth off at the gums. They cinched a rope around his arms and painfully drew his shoulders back.
Over four days, every two to three hours, the beatings resumed. During one especially fierce beating, he fell, again breaking his arm.
John was beaten for communicating with other prisoners.
He was beaten for NOT communicating with so-called "peace delegations."
He was beaten for not giving information during interrogations.
When his captors wanted the names of other pilots in his squadron, John gave them the names of the offensive line of the Green Bay Packers.
Whenever John was returned to his cell -- walking if he could, dragged if he couldn't -- as he passed his fellow POWs, he would call out to them.
He'd smile ... and give them a thumbs-up.
For five-and-a-half years this went on.
John McCain's bones may have been broken but his spirit never was.
Now, being a POW certainly doesn't qualify anyone to be President.
But it does reveal character.
This is the kind of character that civilizations from the beginning of history have sought in their leaders.
Strength.
Courage.
Humility.
Wisdom.
Duty.
Honor.
It's pretty clear there are two questions we will never have to ask ourselves, "Who is this man?" and "Can we trust this man with the Presidency?"
-
Any witnesses to all of this "torture?"
We know he was beaten up pretty badly by the folks who apprehended him, but I'll tell ya, if you've ever seen pictures of napalm victims, especially the children (Ramparts Magazine published them in 1967 or 1968) you'd know this guy barely got what he deserved.
But who. apart from John McCain, witnessed all this "horrible torture" in prison? His former guard was interviewed in Viet Nam. I posted the link before. He says he liked McCain and would even vote for him today, that McCain was very patriotic and always stuck up for his country. He also says that McCain was never tortured.
So who's telling the truth? Where are the eye-witnesses?
Sure, McCain appears to be injured. But all the injuries are physically consistent with being hurt in a plane crash and then abused by an angry mob of the victims of his own war crimes.
The article was also silent about the broadcasts that McCain is known to have made from Viet Nam in order to secure better treatment for himself. Reminding me, where are the tapes? Somebody's got them. If McCain were a Democrat, those tapes would be all over the MSM by now, but there seems to be a conspiracy of silence about the McCain broadcasts from Viet Nam. Never happened. Never existed. Scary.
-
Any witnesses to all of this "torture?"
We know he was beaten up pretty badly by the folks who apprehended him, but I'll tell ya, if you've ever seen pictures of napalm victims, especially the children (Ramparts Magazine published them in 1967 or 1968) you'd know this guy barely got what he deserved.
But who. apart from John McCain, witnessed all this "horrible torture" in prison? His former guard was interviewed in Viet Nam. I posted the link before. He says he liked McCain and would even vote for him today, that McCain was very patriotic and always stuck up for his country. He also says that McCain was never tortured.
So who's telling the truth? Where are the eye-witnesses?
Sure, McCain appears to be injured. But all the injuries are physically consistent with being hurt in a plane crash and then abused by an angry mob of the victims of his own war crimes.
The article was also silent about the broadcasts that McCain is known to have made from Viet Nam in order to secure better treatment for himself. Reminding me, where are the tapes? Somebody's got them. If McCain were a Democrat, those tapes would be all over the MSM by now, but there seems to be a conspiracy of silence about the McCain broadcasts from Viet Nam. Never happened. Never existed. Scary.
Again I musty say you don't live in the real world, meaning you live in a fantasy world. You might have a chipmunk come to your backdoor every now and then but to not KNOW that the NV captors tortured prisoners is like not knowing Iran is building NUKES. Your mind is either closed to certain facts or you are seriously flawed in your ability to coherently assess truth from fiction.
-
Yo Tee, care to cite some credible witnesses who referenced how staying at the Hanio Hilton was largely like staying at the Marriot? There has to be some POW that can corroborate how life was all peaches & cream
-
Yo Tee, care to cite some credible witnesses who referenced how staying at the Hanio Hilton was largely like staying at the Marriot? There has to be some POW that can corroborate how life was all peaches & cream
Swiftboating is some BS, isn't it?
-
Yo Tee, care to cite some credible witnesses who referenced how staying at the Hanio Hilton was largely like staying at the Marriot? There has to be some POW that can corroborate how life was all peaches & cream
Swiftboating is some BS, isn't it?
Anything you or tee say isn't swiftboating, it's just a couple of kooks with computers.
-
<< . . but to not KNOW that the NV captors tortured prisoners is like not knowing Iran is building NUKES. Your mind is either closed to certain facts or you are seriously flawed in your ability to coherently assess truth from fiction. >>
Yeah, yeah, right, everyone knows, but getting back to my original question: WHERE ARE THE WITNESSES?
-
<< . . but to not KNOW that the NV captors tortured prisoners is like not knowing Iran is building NUKES. Your mind is either closed to certain facts or you are seriously flawed in your ability to coherently assess truth from fiction. >>
Yeah, yeah, right, everyone knows, but getting back to my original question: WHERE ARE THE WITNESSES?
google
-
Yo Tee, care to cite some credible witnesses who referenced how staying at the Hanio Hilton was largely like staying at the Marriot? There has to be some POW that can corroborate how life was all peaches & cream
Swiftboating is some BS, isn't it?
So, apparently there are none. Fascinating, yet not surprising
-
<<google>>
I REALLY do not think you want to go there. I did Google "eyewitness McCain torture" and the first screen without scrolling to the bottom revealed NO stories disclosing any eyewitness to McCain's alleged "torture" but did turn up two eyewitness stories that indicated McCain was lying about his "torture."
So, now for the third time, I ask:
WHERE ARE THE EYE-WITNESSES to McCain's lurid tales of "torture?"
WHERE ARE THE EYE-WITNESSES?
-
Yo Tee, care to cite some credible witnesses who referenced how staying at the Hanio Hilton was largely like staying at the Marriot? There has to be some POW that can corroborate how life was all peaches & cream
Swiftboating is some BS, isn't it?
So, apparently there are none. Fascinating, yet not surprising
I guess someone should publish a book called Goggle for Morons then he might look up the answers.
-
Google for Morons, Goggle for Morons, what's the difference? So far us morons ain't seen no eye-witnesses to the torture of napalm bomber John Insane and his own jailer denies it.
-
Apparently Tee's gonna take the eye-witness testimony of a former SS soldier under Hitler, proclaiming how good the jews really had it, in their "camps"
-
<<Apparently Tee's gonna take the eye-witness testimony of a former SS soldier under Hitler, proclaiming how good the jews really had it, in their "camps">>
Don't have to. Plenty of eye-witnesses, plenty of films, plenty of documentation.
But, getting back to McCain, WHERE ARE THE EYE-WITNESSES TO HIS "TORTURE?"
-
So, no names, no one besides this lone SS jailor,..oops I mean HH jailor as the only "witness" to McCain's pleasant treatment at the Sheraton
Yea, let's get Obama to run with that one. Sure sounds like a winner
-
<<So, no names, no one besides this lone SS jailor,..oops I mean HH jailor as the only "witness" to McCain's pleasant treatment at the Sheraton
<<Yea, let's get Obama to run with that one. Sure sounds like a winner>>
All I wanna know is, where are the witnesses? That's a simple question, should be easy to answer. And yes, I would replay the jailer's interview. There isn't one single thing that discredits him today, except his obvious interest in the case, which is no greater and no less than McCain's own interest. Less, actually, since the jail guard isn't running for President.
Why not give each of them lie-detector tests, McCain and the guard? I'd bet for sure McCain would refuse the test.
-
What twisted world are you living in, Tee, where all the prisoners are rounded up and tortured in some group format?? Are you trying to claim NO ONE was tortured, because they couldn't get an eyewitenss to each of their own episodes of being tortured??
Your perversion of reality, to fit your predisposed mindset of what is, is is truely staggering. U.S. military supposedly performs widespread torture, based largely on how well it's kept hidden (and the knee jerk tossing out the term Abu Graib), but if it happens to be a Republican who was brutally tortured, multiple fx's to all over the body, well......the SS jailor said he wasn't really, and you're gonna run on that.
Sick, twisted.......yet sadly, not surprising, given the source
-
<<What twisted world are you living in, Tee, where all the prisoners are rounded up and tortured in some group format?? >>
The real world, the world of Abu Ghraib. Abu Ghraib was very real. There are eye-witnesses, there are photos, there are videos. Auschwitz was real too. There were eye-witnesses, there were photos, there were movie films.
<< . . .but if it happens to be a Republican who was brutally tortured, multiple fx's to all over the body, well......>>
Well what? The fx are consistent with the crash and getting beaten up by the angry mob. They are not evidence of torture.
<<the SS jailor said he wasn't really, and you're gonna run on that.>>
There was no "SS" jailor. He said he didn't torture McCain and McCain said he did. One man's word against the other, why the hell should I take the word of a proven liar?
<<Sick, twisted.......yet sadly, not surprising, given the source>>
Can the fucking bullshit, sirs. Show me the eye-witness, or see if McCain will take a lie-detector test.
-
<<What twisted world are you living in, Tee, where all the prisoners are rounded up and tortured in some group format?? >>
The real world, the world of Abu Ghraib. Abu Ghraib was very real. There are eye-witnesses, there are photos, there are videos. Auschwitz was real too. There were eye-witnesses, there were photos, there were movie films.
<< . . .but if it happens to be a Republican who was brutally tortured, multiple fx's to all over the body, well......>>
Well what? The fx are consistent with the crash and getting beaten up by the angry mob. They are not evidence of torture.
<<the SS jailor said he wasn't really, and you're gonna run on that.>>
There was no "SS" jailor. He said he didn't torture McCain and McCain said he did. One man's word against the other, why the hell should I take the word of a proven liar?
<<Sick, twisted.......yet sadly, not surprising, given the source>>
Can the fucking bullshit, sirs. Show me the eye-witness, or see if McCain will take a lie-detector test.
You really have no problem showing the world just what an ignorant moron sounds like.
-
Lets not get mad at MT for this one.
This is indeed tha sort of acdcusation that hoists its owners with their own petard.
-
<<You really have no problem showing the world just what an ignorant moron sounds like.>>
On the contrary, being unable to answer a legitimate question and blowing up at the questioner shows who the real ignorant moron is.
-
It is unimportant how severely McCain was treated in Hanoi. I would imagine that if some evil Commie were to napalm Kramer's house, the sentiment would not be to jail or torture the pilot, but to murder him in some really painful manner.
But his participation in the VN War simply showed that he was a lackey of the administration by running any bombing missions. He was no maverick, he followed orders just like Eichmann.
I fail to see how his being in jail anywhere qualifies him for leadership.
I do see how his age of 72 qualifies him for a pension, however.
-
<<What twisted world are you living in, Tee, where all the prisoners are rounded up and tortured in some group format?? >>
The real world, the world of Abu Ghraib. Abu Ghraib was very real.
LOL.....and like clockwork......."Abu Graib" News flash Tee, in the real world, Abu Graib is Abu Graib, it's not the U.S. military. Abu Graib is also soldiers prosecuted for inappropriate conduct and treatment of prisoners.
There are eye-witnesses, there are photos, there are videos. Auschwitz was real too. There were eye-witnesses, there were photos, there were movie films.
SCALE, Tee. So again, where are these eye witnesses that McCain was treated like royalty?? Someone NOT associated with covering their own ass, by the way.
<< . . .but if it happens to be a Republican who was brutally tortured, multiple fx's to all over the body, well......>>
Well what? The fx are consistent with the crash and getting beaten up by the angry mob. They are not evidence of torture.
He did get some of those fx's from the accident. He probably got some from the mob. He most likely got far more at the Hilton, consistent with so many of the other POW's. Or are they all lying?
<<the SS jailor said he wasn't really, and you're gonna run on that.>>
There was no "SS" jailor. He said he didn't torture McCain and McCain said he did. One man's word against the other, why the hell should I take the word of a proven liar?
As I said, you run with that Tee. Please, get Obama's camp to run with that too. American POW's word vs that of his vietnamese captor. Yea, that'll go over really well. Don't forget to make sure to call every other POW a lier as well. Obama will have that Presidential race all locked up
<<Sick, twisted.......yet sadly, not surprising, given the source>>
Can the fucking bullshit, sirs. Show me the eye-witness, or see if McCain will take a lie-detector test.
I have an easier suggestion, show us a credible eye-witness to how nice McCain was supposedly treated. Rest assured though, no one will be holding their breath
-
<<I have an easier suggestion, show us a credible eye-witness to how nice McCain was supposedly treated. Rest assured though, no one will be holding their breath>>
Problem is, I never claimed he was treated NICE. Why would anyone treat a war criminal nice? especially one who had napalmed women and children? Would YOU? if they were American women and children?
-
LOL...now it was ok he be tortured, for all the "criminal" acts he performed
Priceless
-
Honest to God, sirs, you're like an eel, you keep twisting and turning so nobody can ever pin you down. First there is this phony bitching about McCain's "torture" which nobody but he has ever witnessed, then when you can't prove the sonofabitch was EVER "tortured" you challenge me to show he was "treated nice" and then when I show the absurdity of treating the bastard "nice" you go back to "so his 'torture' [unwitnessed and unproven] was justified?"
God, man, stay in one place for longer than one exchange, OK?
Now let's recap:
1. There's no proof he was ever tortured.
2. There is no reason the murdering bastard should ever have been "treated nice."
3. There is no excuse for torturing even a murdering war criminal bastard like John Insane; if there is a God, then God will take care of it; McCain better hope like hell that there isn't.
Got that? Good. Glad we could get that straight. Let me know when you find any eye-witnesses to his "torture," OK?
-
Yea sure thing, right after you can find a credible eye-witness that says he never was (read not someone who we can easily demonstrate is simply in CYA mode)
-
It is unimportant how severely McCain was treated in Hanoi. I would imagine that if some evil Commie were to napalm Kramer's house, the sentiment would not be to jail or torture the pilot, but to murder him in some really painful manner.
But his participation in the VN War simply showed that he was a lackey of the administration by running any bombing missions. He was no maverick, he followed orders just like Eichmann.
I fail to see how his being in jail anywhere qualifies him for leadership.
I do see how his age of 72 qualifies him for a pension, however.
I think LBJ was POTUS then.
Hey Woebagger aren't you pushing 80 old man?
-
I fail to see how his being in jail anywhere qualifies him for leadership.
Strange......I can't seem to locate anywhere where anyone has claimed that his being a POW was some qualifying event to be POTUS. Please Xo, show us whom is making such a claim. We wait with baited breath
-
Are you kidding? Every old fart that spoke in his defense last night talked about how hugely courageous he was to have been a prisioner.
I am 65 and I am not running for president. Vietnam was a waste of lives, money and time. I sure couldn't see any reason to go there, and I didn't.
It's time for McCain to retire. He's a thing of the past.
-
Are you kidding? Every old fart that spoke in his defense last night talked about how hugely courageous he was to have been a prisioner.
I am 65 and I am not running for president. Vietnam was a waste of lives, money and time. I sure couldn't see any reason to go there, and I didn't.
It's time for McCain to retire. He's a thing of the past.
I hope when he retires Palin will be our next POTUS.
-
Being courageous, (which it was), and being subjected to whatever horrors he was, is NOT the same as stating his being a POW is some qualifier to being POTUS. It's simply saying something of the man, McCain
So, are you planning on modyfying your claim, or are you planning on demonstrating who's claiming being a POW is a qualification for being President??
Ball in your court
-
<<Yea sure thing, right after you can find a credible eye-witness that says he never was (read not someone who we can easily demonstrate is simply in CYA mode)>>
The jailer. What's he afraid of, McCain's gonna track him down and kill him? The Vietnam government would prosecute him for torturing a war criminal who's probably killed more women than Ted Bundy, adding the horrible agony of burning them alive, which not even Bundy would do? They'd probably give him an extra medal if he DID torture the guy.
You've got one credible witness who says he was never tortured. The jail guard.
You've got McCain, who says he WAS tortured, but this we know is the same lying bastard who swore marriage vows to his wife which meant absolutely zip in real life. Then lied to her to cover all his cheating. THIS is the guy whose word you wanna take over his Vietnamese guard's? A known liar and a war criminal? Lotsa luck.
So really what YOUR problem is, is to find one credible witness who'll back up the little weasel's claims that he WAS tortured, especially when his jailer denies that it ever happened.
-
I hope when he retires Palin will be our next POTUS.
------------------------------------------------
The odds are McCain won't retire, he'll croak, and then we have some fundie flake with the experience of Isabel Peron trying to run this country as the lobbyists and fatcats swarm around her like botflies and carrion crows.
-
LOL...yea, the guard is "credible". As I said, apparently Tee is gonna take the word of an SS officer under Hitler claiming the Jews were all treated with kid gloves.
Nice world Tee lives in
-
<<LOL...yea, the guard is "credible". As I said, apparently Tee is gonna take the word of an SS officer under Hitler claiming the Jews were all treated with kid gloves.>>
Uh, no, that's one of your lies that I already demolished in this thread, sirs, remember? We don't have to take anyone's word against the SS, because we have eye-witnesses, photos and film. Remember? I'm getting worried about your mental state, sirs, because although lying is normal for you, almost your default state, you're usually able to remember for more than the course of a day, which lies have already been exploded and need replacement, and which lies are still good. When you start using exploded lies in the same thread in which they've been exploded, I naturally worry about you, sirs.
<<Nice world Tee lives in>>
Yeah, the real world. Step in and look around once in awhile. There's no entry fee.
-
Witness to Vietnameese torture
Mike McGrath
(http://www.nampows.org/mcgrathart.gif)
-
No need to worry about me Tee. Your hyperbole & lies are so easy to document, you could almost apply the famous query, when do you know x is lying? When they type. Though is this thread its not so much lying as in your transparent double standard
-
<<Witness to Vietnameese torture
<<Mike McGrath>>
Good artist. Maybe you could get him to illustrate some Operation Phoenix tortures while he's at it. Or the tortures described by John Paul Vann in A Bright Shining Lie, which usually ended, not surprisingly, with the death of the victim. Would he be interested in an Abu Ghraib volume?
I don't know where Americans find the gall to protest torture, since they are the world's leading practitioners.
And, for the record, McGrath was NOT an eyewitness to the alleged "torture" of which McCain is always complaining, he himself, it appears, being the only witness to it, since even his jailer denies that he was tortured. Common sense alone would indicate that one does not torture the son of a U.S. admiral. McCain in fact got as good hospital treatment as was available at the time, and photographs even show him in hospital in a plaster cast which for sure was not of his own making.