Author Topic: The coup  (Read 2650 times)

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Plane

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Re: The coup
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2007, 04:07:38 PM »
How do you know I wasn't pulling your leg?


You arn't , unless I am not so smart.

Richpo64

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Re: The coup
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2007, 04:55:48 PM »
>>What a load of AMBE.<<

What has brought us to this kind of insanity in America? What has caused us to come to a point in our history that the "paper of record" prints an editorial that makes such an outrageous claim?

This country is headed down a very slippery slope.

Michael Tee

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Re: The coup
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2007, 06:23:35 PM »
<<This country is headed down a very slippery slope.>>

Funny, that's just what I was thinking.

Stray Pooch

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Re: The coup
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2007, 12:24:00 AM »
That's outrageous.  The Constitution of the United States of America gives CONGRESS the right to make war.  The decision should NEVER have been delegated to the President. 

Not exactly, MT. The Congress gets to DECLARE war, but the Commander-in-Chief has to execute it.  So it is appropriate for the Congress to authorize him to use force.  You could certainly make the legal argument that the Congress should have gone ahead and declared war and been done with it - and many have.  But the Congress has the right to give the President the authority it chooses to.  That, however, is really a different point than I was making.  My point is that Kerry (and you know I am no fan of his) should not have been dogged out for the way he handled that situation in particular.  Right or wrong, he voted to authorize force.  Those on the left who now complain about Kerry and Clinton and other Dems who voted to allow force actually have a better leg to stand on than those on the right who accuse him of flip-flopping.  That's not because the original decision was a bad one - I think it was good.  Rather, it is because people like you who ALWAYS opposed the decision to authorize force (whether for moral reasons or on separation of powers grounds) have a legitimate disagreement.  Those who view a decision to oppose the way the President conducts a war as inconsistent with an initial vote to authorize force are eliminating liquid body wastes in a manner inconsistent with prevailing atmospheric conditions.

The discussion over what to do about Iraq's so-called WMD had been brewing for (IIRC, and I stand to be corrected on this) weeks or months before Congress shamefully abdicated its Constitutional responsibilities.  There was no way in which this could have been considered an emergency.  The "President" had plenty of time to come up with a plan to put before the Congress, for a full debate and vote (in a secret session if warranted) or in meetings with key Congressional figures beforehand.  He should never have been given a blank cheque, but he was, and Kerry was one of those who signed it.  The President should never be given power to launch a full-scale invasion of another country.  That is the prerogative of Congress.

Again, I don't agree with your interpretation of the constitution here.  At least I think that by authorizing force Congress was fulfilling its legislative role in war situations.  Your point about whether there was a true "national emergency" is not a bad one, but I think it comes down to quibbling about definitions.  With a gummit full of lawyers, I don't think either of us can claim a firm grasp on what all the legal points are there. But in granting authority, the Congress was in effect declaring war by default, and letting Bush decide whether to actually execute it or not, based on how Saddam reacted to the warnings he was given (as if there were any question how that would play out).  To put it another way, when Congress declared war (at the request of FDR) on Japan, FDR executed it.  But it would have been perfectly acceptable for Congress to question his handling of the war nonetheless (had they been so inclined).   

What is really worrying is that the whole Constitutional system is falling apart.  This kind of Presidency, complete with war-making powers, has been in place since the end of WWII.  I think the Congressional Declaration of War against Japan was the last time that Congress declared war.  The system since 1945 has moved ever closer to the old monarchical system where the monarch alone decides when to wage war.  It's a travesty.

Well, that was kind of the point behind the War Powers Act.  I am willing to bet that good old silk pajama that some major new legislation along those lines will be showing up some time in 2009.  But that's just me.  But I think you are reading a little too much into the play between the branches.  Honestly, I think the whole "formal declaration of war" idea is an anachronism left over from the time when war was still glorified as a gentleman's pursuit.  The last time I heard of anyone "declaring" war was when Noriega declared war on the US.  Not such a good idea, that.  That and the act of killing a couple American soldiers gave Papa Bush the perfect justification for a quick regime change.  (btw, I just LOVED the irony of the name of that operation - Just Cause.  Somebody probably asked George "Why are we attacking Panama again?" to which he replied "Just 'cause!") 

But authorizing the use of military force is the same basic idea as "declaring" war.  Keep in mind that until WWII wars took a while to develop, but with the technological development of the last century wars could potentially spring up with no warning at all.  9-11 came out of nowhere, and that was a handful of crazy fanatics with box cutters and hijacked planes.  Imagine how quickly decisions might have been called for in a potential cold war confrontation.  Thank God that scenario never played out, but we forget sometimes how much of a chance there was for a real live shooting war complete with the Big Boys in those days.  I sometimes wax nostalgic over how much more rational the Soviets were than these crazy clerics.  But the fact is, there were men in the Politburos who may well have had the insanity to press a button (especially since they often thought there were men in the White House with the same capacity).   In a potential situation where a major war could be upon us in a minute, why would we want to wait for a committee of POLITICIANS to decide what to do about it?  That's why it makes sense to give at least SOME authority to the executive to act in defense without prior approval, much less a formal declaration of war.   

But when there is some time for debate, as in this case, how does deciding that the President is authorized to use force when necessary differ practically from a formal declaration of war?  I guess in the end, it keeps the Congress from having to do something so "icky" as actually declaring a war and then being politically responsible for it.  It's kind of like a legislative euphemism - a collective congressional denial.  The Congress decides to launder their legislation so that they maintain plausible deniability should it all go south.  Your criticisms on those points are dead on - and maybe that is the inverse of the criticism I was making.  Congressmen should be able to criticize how the President uses the authority they grant him, but they ought to have the male apparatus to go ahead and publicly dedicate the nation to war.  But I still think that giving the sitting Executive power to make Executive decisions makes good sense.  And after all, the Constitution isn't written in stone.  Separation of powers is a struggle (intentionally, I might add) that the founders built in to our Constitution.  Recall Andrew Jackson sweeping the Cherokee off of their land in spite of the Supreme Court decision forbidding him to do so.  For that matter go back to Marbury vs. Madison.  And of course, look at the War Powers Act and FISA.  This is nothing new.  Had Congress simply declared war formally, the outcome would have been the same. 
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

Michael Tee

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Re: The coup
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2007, 01:23:20 AM »
I expressed myself poorly.  I meant to say that only Congress had the power to initiate hostilities, but of course "make war" was the wrong choice of words because it can mean both initiating the hostilities and conducting them.  Better to stick with the original wording, which to me is clear enough.  As you point out, it is the power to DECLARE war.  There's also in the same sentence a power to issue letters of reprisal, which is the authorization of forceful actions falling short of war to retaliate for some wrong done to the nation.

I don't see any problems in understanding that power, Pooch.  To declare war is to formally commit the nation to war on another nation.  Either after being attacked (as in reaction to Pearl Harbor) or before being attacked (as in Nazi Germany's declaration of war on the U.S.A.)  That power was exclusively given to Congress and IMHO for very good reason - - the U.S. had fought through a bloody revolution to free itself from a monarchy and establish a relatively new form of government, a Republic.  They were hoping to escape from the accidents of one-man rule and wanted decisions as important as war to be taken out of the hands of a single ruler and placed in the hands of the people, through their elected representatives.  So it was important, if the nation were to be committed to so deadly an undertaking, that it be done only after a full and fair debate where all sides of the issue were likely to be subjected to the testing of adversarial debate.  That's why, even in the face of an intolerable attack, FDR still went to the Congress to ask for a declaration of war.  He did not dare usurp the power that the Constitution had given only to the Congress.

I think as a form of verbal shorthand here, I am going to use the term "war-making power" to mean the power to declare war or otherwise initiate wars.  Not the power to wage a war once begun.

IMHO, the concern of the Framers with the war-making power was, like the colonists'  concern with the Stamp Act and the Townshend Acts, generated by the threat of financial exactions and stemmed from the days of the English Civil War in the 17th Century, when the King's unilateral power to plunge the country into foreign wars inevitably resulted in exorbitant financial demands on the merchants and traders who were expected to pay for the royal adventures but received no share in any of the foreign dominions thereby acquired.  The pattern repeated under George III.  There was a great and understandable resolve NOT to let the fate of the new nation be committed to one man's decision, which was a major advance in governance at the time.  There were frequent references in the literature of the times to "the wars of kings," which expressed the resentment of the middle classes over the king's extravagant waste of other people's lives, limbs and treasure in wars of his own choosing.

Fast-forward to today, and you can see in the Iraq War a textbook illustration of what the Founding Fathers were afraid of.  The war was not fully debated in an adversarial contest in the Congress, the members of which in effect reverted to the monarchical system which the Framers were so anxious to avoid and delegated their Constitutional responsibility to the one man that the Constitution had said should not have it.  He of course, like Charles I and George III before him, unilaterally committed the nation to a war which has turned out to be a fucking disaster.  This abandonment of Constitutional responsibility is a disgraceful act of cowardice and irresponsibility.  It's a betrayal of the Constitution.   Everyone who took part in it - - and that of course includes Kerry - - betrayed their country and their Constitution.  It stands to reason that Kerry should be crucified (figuratively of course) for this.

The duty that the Congress owed to the people of the U.S. under the Constitution was to consider a proposal for war, to weigh it, to debate it, and ultimately to decide upon it and if so decided to declare war.  That's how wars were traditionally commenced, up to Pearl Harbor.  It was considered particularly dishonourable at the time that the Japs had attacked America without a declaration of war.  I don't believe that the Framers anticipated that the U.S. would enter a war without a declaration of war and so the power to declare was to all intents and purposes the power to commit the country to a war.  There was no other way.  By the actions of the Congress, the people of the U.S.A. were robbed of their constitutional right to have the issue of war fully considered and debated before committment.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2007, 01:27:23 AM by Michael Tee »

Stray Pooch

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Re: The coup
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2007, 01:50:31 AM »
To declare war is to formally commit the nation to war on another nation.  Either after being attacked (as in reaction to Pearl Harbor) or before being attacked (as in Nazi Germany's declaration of war on the U.S.A.) 

Just as a side issue, and a matter of curiosity, do you think that such a declaration (Germany's) has merit?  Not Germany's in particular, of course.  I mean the idea of declaring war before attacked.  How would you contrast that with the idea of a pre-emptive war?

IMHO, the concern of the Framers with the war-making power was, like the colonists'  concern with the Stamp Act and the Townshend Acts, generated by the threat of financial exactions and stemmed from the days of the English Civil War in the 17th Century, when the King's unilateral power to plunge the country into foreign wars inevitably resulted in exorbitant financial demands on the merchants and traders who were expected to pay for the royal adventures but received no share in any of the foreign dominions thereby acquired.  The pattern repeated under George III.  There was a great and understandable resolve NOT to let the fate of the new nation be committed to one man's decision, which was a major advance in governance at the time.  There were frequent references in the literature of the times to "the wars of kings," which expressed the resentment of the middle classes over the king's extravagant waste of other people's lives, limbs and treasure in wars of his own choosing.

That's a pretty interesting analysis.  I enjoyed reading it. You make a lot of good points. The thing is, the original government of the US was under the Articles of Confederation, and it was a disaster.  The whole question of the Constitution (or at least the question that led to its making) was whether there should be a strong central government or a loose confederation of states.  Related to that question was whether there should be a single executive or a shared government like the Congress that had existed to that point.  So there were many in 1787 who saw merit in a single executive over a legislative body.  The purpose of the Executive was actually much like that of a king - to put someone other than a committee in charge.  I think that situation is even more appropriate today, because we have become what we are.  In this huge nation, there are almost certainly more people IN the government today than were BEING governed in 1787.  So I think the separation of powers argument is even more relevent today, and it continues to evolve even after two centuries.

The bottom line though, MT, is that I can't see why authorizing the President to use force differs in terms of your specific objections (lack of debate, lack of representation, etc.) from declaring war formally.  It seems to me that Congress DID fulfill its role in that regard when debating whether or not to authorize force in the first place.  But as I have acknowledged, your point is at least consistent.  Even had the Dems acquiesed in a Declaration of War, I think it is reasonable to say that you would object to that declaration.  But the attack on Kerry on the "flip flop" was invalid and potentially damaging to the Congress. 

Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

Michael Tee

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Re: The coup
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2007, 08:55:04 AM »
I take your point, Pooch, that the debate WAS held before the power was delegated.  Obviously I did not favour the end result and I don't think the Democrats did themselves any credit.  They are SO afraid of being outflanked on the right.

There remains of course the issue of accountability.  It still seems kind of sleazy to shuck off the responsibility though - - it (the delegation) was precisely what allows Kerry to suck and blow at the same time.  Had the Congress followed the Constitution and voted to declare war or not, nobody could weasel out of his or her vote and have it both ways as Kerry is attempting to do.

Declarations of war before being attacked are usually issued in response to treaty obligations, rather than "pre-emptive" wars.  They're the minimum first step in the fulfillment of the obligation and they're a public demonstration that the obligation has been fulfilled.  Examples would be the British declaration of war against Germany in fulfillment of British obligations under the Anglo-Polish treaty of 1939, and Hitler's declaration of war against the U.S.A. in fulfillment of Germany's treaty obligations to Japan under the extension of the Rome-Berlin ("Axis") treaties.  Barbara Tuchman's book, The Guns of August, gives a good explanation of the web of treaties which obligated one country after another to enter WWI by successive declarations of war.

As explained by my dad, who knew a lot about these things, it was considered "ungentlemanly" to open hostilities without a declaration of war, even if the declaration preceded the opening of hostilities by just a few hours.  Whether this was just a norm of international conduct or actually required by international law, I don't recall now.  The Jap attack on Pearl Harbor engendered a lot of indignation because it was what the American press deemed a "sneak attack," i.e., commenced without a declaration of war.   I'm not sure if any of the Japanese war crimes trials involved charges of waging an undeclared war, but at the very least the absence of a declaration of war would argue for the illicit and unjustified nature of the war and help characterize it as a war of unprovoked aggression.


Plane

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Re: The coup
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2007, 12:49:06 AM »
Did Congress ever declare war on an Indian tribe?

Were the Indian wars an exception?

Was war declared on the Hucs in the Phillipines?

Ever have a war Declaration in Hati?

Michael Tee

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Re: The coup
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2007, 10:55:41 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_United_States

When the U.S. declared war and when it didn't.  How accurate this is, I don't know.

Plane

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Re: The coup
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2007, 06:06:45 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_United_States

When the U.S. declared war and when it didn't.  How accurate this is, I don't know.


Quote
Many times, the United States has engaged in extended military engagements that, while not formally declared wars, were explicitly authorized by Congress, short of a formal declaration of war.


Thank you.

Seems accurate enough .