Author Topic: Iowa results:  (Read 4934 times)

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_JS

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2008, 03:03:25 PM »
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I fail to see the big deal here. According to Mormon theology, THEY ARE! (and Norse, too -- Thor & Loki) What am I missing?

Respect for other religions.

They are all based on faith one way or the other.

Huckabee was giving a wink and a nod and silently shouting Romney is not one of us.

I understand tribes and i understand nations. Huckabee isn't running to lead a tribe he is running to lead a nation of many tribes.


I agree with Bt on this point.

He might have been (or still is - I don't know how they work) a Baptist Minister, but as President he cannot isolate people in that way. That statement was made purposefully and was extremely callous. Even if his main constituency is Protestant Christian voters, he cannot simply be their President. He would be working for people of many religions, cultures, and values.
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Michael Tee

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2008, 09:07:38 PM »
<<If Obama gets shot, this country would explode.>>

With all due respect, this country would do what it always has done in the past - - bend over and take it where the sun don't shine.
Like they took the JFK assassination.  Like they took the killings of Martin Luther King and Bobby.  Like they took the killings at Kent State.  Like they took the stolen election of 2000.  Like they took the lies that brought them to Iraq.

It's virtually impossible to imagine what would make this country explode.  It would have to be some kind of simultaneous threat to their cable TV reception, their gun ownership and their carbohydrate intake.

fatman

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2008, 12:35:19 AM »
It's virtually impossible to imagine what would make this country explode.  It would have to be some kind of simultaneous threat to their cable TV reception, their gun ownership and their carbohydrate intake.

As much as I hate to admit it, I think you're probably right on the money here.  I'm still laughing.

But if you want to make Canada (or at least BC) explode, all we'd have to do is shut down the outlet malls paralleling I-5 .

Stray Pooch

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2008, 05:13:28 AM »
To me, the tipoff was "Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?"

I fail to see the big deal here. According to Mormon theology, THEY ARE! (and Norse, too -- Thor & Loki) What am I missing?

Much.  For the record, Latter Day Saints believe that ALL of us are brothers and sisters, spiritual children of our Heavenly Father.  We existed as spirits before we came to earth in physical bodies.  (This, btw, is why Latter Day Saints refer to each other as "brother" or "sister.")  Christ, however, is not only the spiritual child of God, but also the only BEGOTTEN son of God.  That is, our Heavenly Father is also Christ's physical father - through Mary.  Satan was Lucifer - son of the morning  (Isa 14:12).  Without digging too deeply into LDS doctrine, ultimately a battle took place in Heaven, during which Lucifer rebelled and became Satan.  (Rev 12: 7-9)  At the end of this war, Satan and his followers (about a third of the children of God) were cast out, and the other two thirds (that would be us, folks) were allowed to move on to earth life.  The idea that Christ and Satan are brothers is not particularly far-fetched, given that even Satan would have to have been created by God.  Christians do not, as some other religions, believe that the opposing forces of good and evil are represented by warring Gods of equal but opposite power.  Satan was never, and will never be, on a par with Heavenly Father. 

So much for LDS doctrine.  But I think the issue is that Huckabee felt the need to point out this fact.  I was unaware of the quote until I read it here, but it strengthens my concern about the man's motives.  Simply put, though very common in politics, it is wrong to try to win votes through appeals to prejudice. 
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hnumpah

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2008, 12:18:56 PM »
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But I think the issue is that Huckabee felt the need to point out this fact.  I was unaware of the quote until I read it here, but it strengthens my concern about the man's motives.  Simply put, though very common in politics, it is wrong to try to win votes through appeals to prejudice.

I believe I said some time ago that I didn't care for Huckabee, that his being a Southern Baptist preacher was enough reason for me to suspect him. This kind of thing is why. Even if the statement had been true - I believe Pooch's explanation that it is not, literally - there was no reason to bring it up other than to demean Romney's faith to try to score points with the fundamentalists. How will he act when he has to deal with Muslim countries? Hindu? Even Jewish, or predominantly Catholic ( I can remember when Southern Baptists literally thought the Pope was Satan's representative on earth )? Do we want someone like that for president?
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sirs

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2008, 03:54:27 PM »
I have to concede, Huckabee is no longer on the top of my list
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2008, 05:59:04 PM »
The GOP oligarchs are not going to want to run Huckabee as their candidate. People who believe that they hear God's word are quite often unwilling to compromise their principles, and can tend towards intolerance. The people of the US have never elected a preacher, and that is, I believe a good thing. I believe that technically all Mormon men are also ministers in the LDS Church, and that would include Mitt Romney.

That leaves us with Giulani, who is batshit loco with a one-note campaign song where 9-11,9-11 are the only lyrics, Fred Thompson, who is , well tall and has a sexy voice, but lazy and no good at picking aides, and McCain, the War Lover.

I don't think any of them has much of a chance in 2008.
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BT

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2008, 06:23:56 PM »
Jimmy Carter taught Sunday School.


Stray Pooch

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2008, 07:04:35 PM »
The GOP oligarchs are not going to want to run Huckabee as their candidate. People who believe that they hear God's word are quite often unwilling to compromise their principles, and can tend towards intolerance. The people of the US have never elected a preacher, and that is, I believe a good thing. I believe that technically all Mormon men are also ministers in the LDS Church, and that would include Mitt Romney.

Well, once again you are a little off in your understanding.  All worthy male members of the church over the age of 12 have some form of the priesthood.  There are Deacons, Teachers and Priests - members of the lower or Aaronic Priesthood and Elders, Seventies and High Priests - members of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood.   We do not have a paid, professional ministerial staff.  For example, my current Bishop (which is an office of the Aaronic Priesthood - but usually held by a High Priest - again, long story) is a Microbiology professor at James Madison University.  Our "Bishop" would be equivalent to a Pastor in a protestant church or a parish priest in the Catholic church.  Mitt is at least an Elder, possibly a High Priest but at any rate a Melchizedek Priesthood holder.  Given his schedule, I doubt he currently holds any calling of heavy responsibillity.  So while most LDS males (myself included) have an office of the Priesthood, it is not comparable to a full-time minister in your typical Protestant Church.

Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

fatman

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2008, 07:45:36 PM »
The people of the US have never elected a preacher, and that is, I believe a good thing.

Fact correction, James A Garfield was an ordained minister.

BT

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2008, 08:21:41 PM »
The Girl Who Sank Hillary
A tale of two Iowa caucuses.
Council Bluffs, Iowa ??He has a good exit strategy for getting us out of the war with honor,? says Bob Krivanek, standing beneath a Joe Biden sign in a corner of the Kirn Junior High School auditorium. ?He?s not tied to any of those lobbyist groups.? Meanwhile, his wife Brenda approaches, and he asks her ? ?Honey, why are we for Biden??

This couple is as Republican as they are Democrat ? Bob says that his overall second choice is Mitt Romney. But this year they?re sold on Biden ? and they?ve been selling him, too. The night before, Bob and Brenda had a new neighbor over for dinner to explain how the caucuses work, and in the process they converted her from Edwards to Biden. Together with Mrs. Krivanek?s college-aged daughter, Elle Jacobs, the Krivanek crew comprises much of Biden?s support in the precinct.

A Democrat new to the state, a 20-year-old girl at her first caucus, an effectively Republican man, and his Democratic wife: who could guess that these four would spend the next hour deciding a statewide election? The action in that room ? the Democratic caucus for the 9th precinct of Council Bluffs ? will become not just a microcosm of the statewide election, but a significant determiner of the outcome to be broadcast to the nation.

About 50 feet from the small Biden platoon stands a yellow huddle in the back of the auditorium ? local firemen in the colors of the International Association of Fire Fighters and wearing Chris Dodd stickers. The seven of them are joined in Dodd?s corner by one woman and a schoolteacher sporting an American flag tie. Their leader is Dodd precinct captain Chris Sorenson, a fireman cited for his valor in Gov. Tom Vilsack?s 2004 state of the state address.

Bill Richardson?s group (led by the only Hispanic present) is nine-strong. In his corner, Greg Andersen, 25, knows his candidate might not be viable, but he also knows that his second choice will not be Hillary Clinton. ?I for sure don?t like Hillary and her stance on the war,? he says. ?A lot of her values are very close to the values of the Republican Party. They?re not close to those of her husband. They are two different people, and it makes me angry to see her using his name to get elected.?

Then there are the three super powers: Clinton, Obama, Edwards, each in their corner of the room. The opening count runs as follows:


    Clinton: 52

    Edwards: 43

    Obama: 39

    Biden: 13

    Richardson: 9

    Dodd: 9

    Kucinich: 2

    Undecided: 1


That?s just the beginning: now it?s time for the realignment. To win delegates in a precinct a candidate must receive at least 15-percent of the vote there ? in this auditorium that translates to 26 people. For a few brief moments, each of the three minor camps ? Biden, Dodd, Richardson ? tries to persuade the two others to join them. But it is clear that none of the three will survive the night. Their supporters are told to join a viable group ? or form one.

The bigger groups begin to invite them over, to chant at them as if at a football game: ?HIL-LA-RY! HIL-LA-RY!?

The sing-song tones ring out: ?Edwards, Edwards!? and ?Join Obama! [Clap, clap, clap-clap-clap!]?.

One young woman, holding a bakery box, shouts across the room: ?Do you guys want some cookies? Come to Edwards!? After several minutes, the caucus chairman calls for attention. ?I?m going to have to ask for silence for a moment so that people can think,? he says.

?It?s past time for that!? one man shouts, drawing chuckles. ?If you?re not for Edwards, you?re not thinking!? More laughter. It?s intense, but light hearted and polite.

In the Dodd camp, Sorenson is trying to persuade his firemen to go to Obama as a bloc. Yet his men hesitate ? perhaps it bothers them that Obama?s precinct captain is Sorenson?s wife. One fireman objects: ?I?m not voting for anyone else. I?ll just grab my coat and go.?

He grabs his coat, but before he can leave, an Edwards campaign ambassador approaches. ?What do you guys hang from the ladders at firefighters? funerals?? he asks the men in yellow. An awkward moment ensues. ?The American flag!? he answers his own question. Then, he points right at Mrs. Sorenson, and declares: ?Obama doesn?t salute the American flag.? For good measure, he adds that Obama was sworn in to the Senate on the Koran. (Not true, but all?s fair in the heat of a caucus moment.)

The firefighters awkwardly ignore this rant, and the school teacher returns from the Biden-Richardson corner with a proposal: all three camps join together in an undecided bloc. This would give them two ? or possibly even three ? uncommitted delegates to the county convention. This appeals to the whole Dodd crowd.

Hillary?s emissary appears at this point. ?She?s done more for firefighters than anyone else,? he pleads. But the man with his coat in his hand starts to leave, and the other firemen raise their hands in protest ? ?Please, leave us alone.? From the beginning of the night, all of the Dodd types have made it clear they will never support Hillary. Three say they would definitely vote for a Republican over her.

Sorenson leads his crew down to the independent corner, awkwardly walking right past his wife and the whole Obama camp. The independent group, 32 strong in the beginning, has dwindled, with a handful of Richardson and Biden supporters wandering over to join Obama or Edwards. Two of them join Hillary.

What is left is an unruly bunch. Ideologically, it ranges from the conservative fireman, jacket in arms, to a Kucinich supporter who has rejected Kucinich?s plea to caucus with Obama as a second choice. They do a head count: only 23 remain undecided, three short of viability.

Immediately, two more undecideds peel off. One goes to Edwards, evoking cheers. The Kucinich lady goes to Hillary, frowning and explaining that it?s her fourth choice.

The group dissolves amid groans. Chris Sorenson walks to Obama, and almost all the firemen follow him. Richardson?s precinct captain is happy to join Obama as well, but some of his crew walk across the room to Edwards, leaving behind four voters: the jacket-carrying fireman (who makes it clear that with Dodd?s loss, he?ll be voting Republican in November), Krivanek, his wife, and their daughter Elle.

?That?s it for me,? says Krivanek. He?s leaving?he doesn?t want to be counted for any of the other candidates. ?It?s Biden or nothing.? His wife doesn?t say it in so many words, but she?s standing by her man.

But their daughter Elle is another matter. ?Mom, I?m going over there,? she says nervously. Her mother supports her decision, and Elle heads to the opposite corner of the room with her neighbor ? the Edwards side. Cheers erupt, and the caucus is over.

Five minutes later, the final count is handed down:


    Edwards: 56

    Clinton: 55

    Obama: 54

Hillary has picked up only three delegates from the unaligned, while Edwards has gained 13 and Obama 15. This is the same pattern that the rest of the state saw ? the same pattern that each of us predicted prior to caucus night. Hillary is no one?s second choice.

The 9th precinct sends 16 delegates to the Pottawattamie County Democratic convention, the caucus chairman announces. Edwards, on the strength of his one-vote victory, will receive six of them, Clinton and Obama get five each.

One young girl, then, has decided the entire precinct?s fate. In how many precincts did something like this happen?

The caucus-goers then pick the delegates and head home. As the night progresses, Edwards bests Hillary in Iowa, taking second place by just seven delegates. That single extra delegate provided by Elle Jacobs?s last-minute choice ends up being the one that gives Edwards 29.75 percent of the state?s delegates and keeps Hillary at 29.47 percent. Had Elle Jacobs instead made the ?woman?s choice? of Clinton, Hillary?s total would have rounded up to 30-percent instead of down to 29. We might be hearing about an Edwards-Clinton tie for second place.

Third place in Iowa, behind an Obama victory, was always Hillary?s worst-case scenario. Thanks to Edwards?s one-vote victory in a chaotic junior high school auditorium in Pottawattamie County, her nightmare came true.

?David Freddoso is an NRO staff reporter. Timothy Carney is a reporter in Washington, D.C.

http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=ZWRhMjZmMzIzN2JkODQ5NjQyYWQ5YzU4MmRkOTUxMDg=

Cynthia

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2008, 10:15:56 PM »
Biden refused to sit for a photo shoot with a man's "Potato Head" doll. He has a photo of most if not all the candidates but Biden. Don't care about babies....hold em long..but don't refuse a Potato head photo op.

I remember hearing about Biden back in 85. I was in Willimington Del. that Christmas. He was up and coming.....how long does it take to be up and coming and finally arrive?

I have always liked Biden. But, how many years does it take to concede and finally quit the race?