Author Topic: Iowa results:  (Read 4944 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2008, 09:13:21 AM »
Well, there's the commentary that I knew this group was capable of.  Thanks especially to BT and Prince, those were excellent analyses, pretty much covered all the bases.  And extra thanks to BT for Liveblogging - - that was some very funny writing and for sure I would have missed it if left to my own devices.

I was working late, unfortunately, didn't get to hear Obama's speech (which most commentators deemed excellent, although that guy's way too slick for me, I don't think there's a hell of a lot that he is willing or able to change) or even Hillary's.  One of the CNN commentators was raking Hillary over the coals for her speech, the main criticism being that in this guy's opinion, she was talking as if she had WON the vote, that there was little to no recognition of defeat, and that this was not the kind of leadership that people wanted any more, they were looking for real, no-bullshit straight talk.  Wolfe Blitzer cut the guy off before he could do any more damage, but not fast enough.  Sure hope everyone took that message.

Some people really want change, big change.   One of the CNN commentators said that Obama could be the next RFK.  On the one hand, I wish, I really wish . . . but then reality kicks in.  He isn't, and probably better for him that he isn't, otherwise for sure he'd meet the same fate. Don't look for change in this election.  Or the next or the next . . . Amerikka's locked into its track to self-destruction and voting ain't gonna change a God-damned thing.

yellow_crane

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2008, 11:29:12 AM »
Are the 9 points a Huckabee vote or an anti-Romney vote?  I think it's too early in the campaign to write in the Huckster as the winner, but it's a dismal prospect to consider in any event.  The commentary I've seen attributes the Huckster's win to a strong conservative Christian vote in Iowa which won't exist in New Hampshire.


Less than a week ago, Huckabee and Romney were virtually tied. 

During the week, Romney spent like a lottery winner, putting all his cash into negative ads.

Huckabee blithely walked out and showed one which he designated cancelled with a wink.

The negative ads backfired, earning the biggest point spread in all the races.

Romney is now wounded in the most critical area of all--the Christian area, because Huckabee won the God contest over Romney, tonight at least.

Those two wounds--the loss of face by spending huge funds and negative ads plus rearranging the Christian count--might well change Romney's expectations some in N. H.

One other big thing:  Hillary and Romney shall a common denominator--they both represent establishment, and tonight both lost to representers of change.




One other big thing:  Hillary and Romney shall a common denominator--they both represent establishment, and tonight both lost to representers of change.

I remember voting for Jiimmy Carter, chiefly because he was a fresh face many years ago and look where THAT got us! sigh.


Don't think that Jimmy can hold a candle to Huckabee in terms of wiley coyote politicking.

I do think Huckabee can hold a candle under Romney.

For instance, Huckabee came out with timely criticism of Bush in those remarks about arrogance and bunker mentality, which Romney quickly condemned.   Guess he miscalculated and decided to overun the wisdom that all candidates should distance themselves from Bush at all costs. 

I think Huckabee laid the bait and Romney bit. 

Another little item that cost him.

Probably the most consistent blunder I see is people underestimating Huckabee.  He is a clever fellow, and hiring Ed Rollins won't hurt. 

I also think the voters are soundly rejecting corporate politics.

Romney spent huge money to buy out everything, and he lost big time.

He keeps holding on to CEO performance programming, spinning here and there until nobody can hold down their lunch.  His typical corporate inspired high negative attack ads were also rejected heavilly by Republican voters in Iowa.   

Along the same vein, Edwards heavy assault in the last days on corporate greed, and the knowledge coming out that Hillary received more money than anybody from pharmetceutical and defense corporations, provided the compliment to put Hillary in last place.

Sounds like Iowans on BOTH sides of the aisle are hip to the real problem about the problems in Washington, and the causual thread leading back to unchecked corporate greed. 

Rejecting Romney is the biggest and most important thing happening, since Romney is corporate America in the waiting room, ready to replace Cheney as figurehead for corporate influence.   Defending Bush and hanging out with Blackwater types, running Rovian ads . . . Romney continues to bury his cred because he comes off like a true clone of corporate behavior, and America has had it, if Iowa is any indication.


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2008, 12:18:44 PM »
I remember voting for Jiimmy Carter, chiefly because he was a fresh face many years ago and look where THAT got us! sigh.

=============================
Yeah, sure, Jerry Ford would have been MUCH better. 

Please.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

_JS

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2008, 12:21:36 PM »
I remember voting for Jiimmy Carter, chiefly because he was a fresh face many years ago and look where THAT got us! sigh.

=============================
Yeah, sure, Jerry Ford would have been MUCH better. 

Please.

Well Ronnie and his Chicago School acolytes force-fed crap was such an infinite improvement <heavy sarcasm>

Just ask all the right-wing death squads in Latin America. They did really well in the 80's ;)
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Religious Dick

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2008, 12:27:54 PM »
I remember voting for Jiimmy Carter, chiefly because he was a fresh face many years ago and look where THAT got us! sigh.

=============================
Yeah, sure, Jerry Ford would have been MUCH better. 

Please.

Well Ronnie and his Chicago School acolytes force-fed crap was such an infinite improvement <heavy sarcasm>

Just ask all the right-wing death squads in Latin America. They did really well in the 80's ;)

Well, let's see - Pinochet purged the leftists, and today Chile is a free and prosperous nation. Castro purged the capitalists, and today Cuba is, well... Cuba....

Maybe there's a lesson in here?
I speak of civil, social man under law, and no other.
-Sir Edmund Burke

BT

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2008, 12:34:12 PM »
Quote
Romney continues to bury his cred because he comes off like a true clone of corporate behavior, and America has had it, if Iowa is any indication.

It's a shame Romney didn't do well. If the pendulum is towards anti-corporatism then let's just shut them down and see how the huddled masses do.

As for Huckabee:

To be honest I am not comfortable with the idea of a preacher in the WH. Especially one who mocks others religious beliefs.


_JS

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2008, 12:34:37 PM »
I remember voting for Jiimmy Carter, chiefly because he was a fresh face many years ago and look where THAT got us! sigh.

=============================
Yeah, sure, Jerry Ford would have been MUCH better. 

Please.

Well Ronnie and his Chicago School acolytes force-fed crap was such an infinite improvement <heavy sarcasm>

Just ask all the right-wing death squads in Latin America. They did really well in the 80's ;)

Well, let's see - Pinochet purged the leftists, and today Chile is a free and prosperous nation. Castro purged the capitalists, and today Cuba is, well... Cuba....

Maybe there's a lesson in here?

You mean that the leader of Chile took refuge in East Germany where she attended Karl Marx University. ;)

Pinochet was great, I like that you libertarians and right-wing crackpots worship the guy.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2008, 01:11:23 PM »
Romney's defeat proves that what shareholders want from a CEO is not what voters want from a President. Normally, shareholders are only given one candidate, anyway. You get to approve or disapprove of them, oe at a time. They rarely lose. Corporate elections are pretty much like Soviet elections, when you get down to it.

Giulani went down in smoke and utter defeat because I don't think fear is the big drawa it used to be, especially for Iowans. There were lots more foreigners than Iowans killed in 9-11 after all. It looks like he's doomed.



Hillary's problem is that she is acceptable to most Democrats, but Obama is more desirable to the young, and Edwards to the workers. An Edwards Obama ticket would be the best one they could have.

I am hoping that Obama does not get himself shot.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2008, 01:15:49 PM »
Jimmy Carter had nothing to do with Pinochet or Castro.

Allende was assassinated in 1972, Castro took over in 1959, Carter was president from 1976-1980.

Jerry Ford was certainly no more inept than Carter. He also paid far too much attention to Henry Kissinger, and that is what wrecked Carter, because that brought on the hostage crisis.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

The_Professor

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2008, 01:25:14 PM »
Well, I'm a tad disappointed that Ron Paul didn't fare better, but I'm not unhappy or surprised with how he did. Certainly he fared much better than Giuliani. That Huckabee did so well, not a a surprise as much as they he beat Romney by so much. The only real surprise is that Thompson did so well. He even edged past McCain. I have to say I don't expect any of these results to be predictive of what the New Hampshire results will be. I expect Romney and Paul to do better, Huckabee, McCain and Thompson not so much. Giuliani, if he does better, I think he'll take votes from McCain and Romney, but he may not fare much better.

Obama beating Clinton, I expected that. Edwards to fare so well, I did not expect. I frankly don't understand his appeal. I wouldn't buy a used car from the guy. I think Clinton might fare better in New Hampshire, but I don't expect her to beat Obama there. I think Obama will get a lot of independent votes there, as will Ron Paul. If Clinton fares better in NH, she'll take votes from Edwards mostly, I think. If she doesn't beat Edwards in NH, her campaign might be doomed.


Actually, I would prefer EDwards over Hillary. For a multitide of reasons.
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The_Professor

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2008, 01:34:05 PM »
Something new begins on the Republican side, too.

Everyone said Mike Huckabee was a big dope to leave Iowa Wednesday to fly to L.A. to be on Jay Leno, but did you see him on that thing? He got off a perfect line on why he's doing well against Romney: "People are looking for a presidential candidate who reminds them more of the guy they work with rather than the guy that laid them off." The studio audience loved him. And you know, in Iowa they watch "The Tonight Show" too.

Mr. Huckabee likes to head-fake people into thinking he's Gomer Pyle, but he's more like the barefoot boy of the green room. He's more James Carville than Jim Nabors.

What we have learned about Mr. Huckabee the past few months is that he's an ace entertainer with a warm, witty and compelling persona. He won with no money and little formal organization, with an evangelical network, with a folksy manner, and with the best guileless pose in modern politics. From the mail I have received the past month after criticizing him in this space, I would say his great power, the thing really pushing his supporters, is that they believe that what ails America and threatens its continued existence is not economic collapse or jihad, it is our culture.

They have been bruised and offended by the rigid, almost militant secularism and multiculturalism of the public schools; they reject those schools' squalor, in all senses of the word. They believe in God and family and America. They are populist: They don't admire billionaire CEOs, they admire husbands with two jobs who hold the family together for the sake of the kids; they don't need to see the triumph of supply-side thinking, they want to see that suffering woman down the street get the help she needs.

They believe that Mr. Huckabee, the minister who speaks their language, shares, down to the bone, their anxieties, concerns and beliefs. They fear that the other Republican candidates are caught up in a million smaller issues--taxing, spending, the global economy, Sunnis and Shia--and missing the central issue: again, our culture. They are populists who vote Republican, and as I have read their letters, I have felt nothing but respect.

But there are two problems. One is that while the presidency, as an office, can actually make real changes in the areas of economic and foreign policy, the federal government has a limited ability to change the culture of America. That is something conservatives used to know. Second, I'm sorry to say it is my sense that Mr. Huckabee is not so much leading a movement as riding a wave. One senses he brilliantly discerned and pursued an underserved part of the voting demographic, and went for it. Clever fellow. To me, the tipoff was "Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?"

http://opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=110011083
To me, the tipoff was "Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?"

I fail to see the big deal here. According to Mormon theology, THEY ARE! (and Norse, too -- Thor & Loki) What am I missing?
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The_Professor

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2008, 01:35:57 PM »
I remember voting for Jiimmy Carter, chiefly because he was a fresh face many years ago and look where THAT got us! sigh.

=============================
Yeah, sure, Jerry Ford would have been MUCH better. 

Please.

Dunno. But, could habe been been worse? Jimmy Carter lacks cojones and a sense for the strategic.
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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

yellow_crane

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2008, 02:25:27 PM »
Romney's defeat proves that what shareholders want from a CEO is not what voters want from a President. Normally, shareholders are only given one candidate, anyway. You get to approve or disapprove of them, oe at a time. They rarely lose. Corporate elections are pretty much like Soviet elections, when you get down to it.

Giulani went down in smoke and utter defeat because I don't think fear is the big drawa it used to be, especially for Iowans. There were lots more foreigners than Iowans killed in 9-11 after all. It looks like he's doomed.



Hillary's problem is that she is acceptable to most Democrats, but Obama is more desirable to the young, and Edwards to the workers. An Edwards Obama ticket would be the best one they could have.

I am hoping that Obama does not get himself shot.



Get himself shot?

The onus would be on him?

My trouble with Obama is that he might belly-up due to the fear of getting shot, a very very REAL possibility these days.  (My other trouble with Obama is that he seems more likely than most to see a windmill and want to talk it down . . . with hope.   He may be way too naive to think he can diplomat change with the Republican Party, now all pawns for the corporate giants.   On this point, you have to give it to Hillary--she suffers not from haziness in this regard.  She knows well how to get on her knees to the quiet giants.)

If Obama gets shot, this country would explode.

Those who I see getting shot before Obama: 

Edwards--those corporate boys simply will not allow him to get into the White House.  He is the most vulnerable, because he is the biggest threat to ending their orgy.

Huckabee--his populist notions put him totally against both rational conservative elements within the Republican and certainly with those who the corporate boys put together--the Neocons.  His remarks about reinstalling art and music in the educational system, for instance, counters every rhetorical opera the Right has been yodelling for more than ten years.  The fact that he is a Republican augments rather than diminishes his being snipered by a corporate-hired hit man (quite possibly Blackwater, America's version of an SS, and heavilly connected to the religious right--relatives of Gary Bauer, among others.   The hard religious right hates Huckabee, because he at least allows America to witness a version of a Christian type that does not drool venum in the name of Jesus.

Least likely to get shot:

Hillary, who now needs a few Kansas-sized siloes to house the corporate cash she receives from pharma and defense contractors.


yellow_crane

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2008, 02:36:08 PM »
Quote
Romney continues to bury his cred because he comes off like a true clone of corporate behavior, and America has had it, if Iowa is any indication.

It's a shame Romney didn't do well. If the pendulum is towards anti-corporatism then let's just shut them down and see how the huddled masses do.

As for Huckabee:

To be honest I am not comfortable with the idea of a preacher in the WH. Especially one who mocks others religious beliefs.




I do not think you have to worry about Huckabee.

I imagine the whole Republican apparatus is buzzing overtime, figuring out how to maim him down.

In New Hampshire, the one who gains big time from Huckabee's coup in Iowa will be John McCain.

Romney's profligate propullsion of briefcase cash in Iowa augers ill for his continued campaign, I think.  America is tired of all the obscene cash in briefcases that does not trickle down beyond buying votes.


BT

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Re: Iowa results:
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2008, 02:50:53 PM »
Quote
I fail to see the big deal here. According to Mormon theology, THEY ARE! (and Norse, too -- Thor & Loki) What am I missing?

Respect for other religions.

They are all based on faith one way or the other.

Huckabee was giving a wink and a nod and silently shouting Romney is not one of us.

I understand tribes and i understand nations. Huckabee isn't running to lead a tribe he is running to lead a nation of many tribes.