The Famous Cuban "Toilet Paper Shortage" article

[Xavier_Onassis]

There are no such things as wealthy, modern, high standard of living Communist countries.

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You will find wealthy, modern and high standard of living lifestyles galore in Shanghai and Beijing. Not to mention Hong Kong.

The rulers of the PRC have surpassed the world record in economic advancement: there has been a sustained growth of over 8% for over ten years. If they are trying to keep people mired in poverty as you claim, they are no good at it at all. No one has ever accomplished a sustained economic growth rate in recorded history. And keep in mind that this is the world's most populous country.

You will NOT find the grinding poverty you see in many American cities in Norway, Sweden, or much of the rest of Western Europe, however.The main reasons we have this here is that education varies with property taxes, and the poor are forced to attend poorly-funded schools. In Europe, most schools are funded equally. So the child of even the poorest Gypsy has the same educational opportunities as the child of the most wealthy. This is far from the case in the US.

The bigots, kluxers and such are ALL Republicans these days. Black people know this, and you ignore it: you thing assh*les like Jim DeMint are some sort of heroes. The Republican party has NOTHING to offer the poor of this country, other than more poverty. Republicans have as a matter of policy an ever-increasing share of the wealth in the hands of the few at the very top. Your screed here is 100% Limbaugh, and like said fat fool, is 100% bogus.

[sirs]

Feel better?

[Michael Tee]

<<However as soon as the expected progress continues over the next decade or so the Communism will die.>>

I'm not going to argue against that, CU4, because I'm still considering that possibility myself.  It may be that communism is successful only as a "jump start" cable, that is best suited for a country or a people that has been in a shit-hole for a long, long, time and needs some explosive burst of energy to get it out of the shit-hole and onto the path of recovery.  Perhaps Communism is like the first stage of a booster rocket, that after it lifts the payload to an appropriate height, it is time for the first rocket to fall off and let the next rocket carry the payload to its true destination.

I'm reminded of something that Fidel Castro said a long time ago, when a reporter asked him why he didn't stay within the American orbit, ask Kennedy for Alliance for Progress assistance and funding and try to develop Cuba on capitalist lines, laying in the infrastructure first with U.S. assistance and then developing the economy  into a prosperous industrial-based economy on the U.S. model.  I was surprised that Castro admitted that he had considered it, and that it would probably have worked.  The only problem with it, and this was a huge problem, was that it would have taken thirty years to come to fruition, which would have meant the sacrifice of another generation of Cuban youth.  ("Sacrifice" in that they would have been left to the joblessness, poverty, illiteracy and hopelessness that was the lot of their parents and ancestors while the economy built itself up to the point where it could have accommodated the next generation after them.)  Fidel said that he was unwilling to sacrifice that generation of Cubans to the same fate that had befallen all of their predecessors.  That the Revolution as an alternative would give their lives instant meaning, instant fulfillment:  education NOW, not for the next generation; healthcare NOW, not for the next generation; independence and dignity NOW, not for the next generation; and ditto for decent housing, food, etc.

The Revolution was a force that gave meaning, direction and purpose to millions of young Cubans and enlisted them from their early teens or even earlier to mobilize and fight for a better world, one free of exploitation, subservience to foreign overlords, illiteracy, etc.  In that respect, it was a galvanizing ideal that changed the lives of millions and deserves our utmost respect.  The same applies to the Chinese and Russian Revolutions.  It's the nature of the evolutionary principle that evolved forms continue to evolve and yes, perhaps it is true that communism in its turn, once certain goals are accomplished, will give way to newer forms.  I hope instead that Communism itself will continue to evolve and adapt, adapt even to successful Revolutions and somehow manage to retain the spirit of Revolutionary opposition to all forms of capitalism, imperialism and exploitation.

[Xavier_Onassis]

The usual announced official goal of Communism is the attainment of a state in which the citizen is converted into a "new Communist Man" and is no ,longer driven by competition and greed, but by the desire to live cooperatively in harmony with everyone else. At this point, the State is no longer needed, and everyone lives in a state of anarchistic bliss.

I see this as extremely wishful thinking. Plato said that his Perfect State, the Republic, would need to be established on an isolated island, out of contact with other cultures, so that its perfection could not be ruined by outsiders. Of course, Plato knew nothing of technology, and it is technological advances that have changed our societies more than anything else. The Ayatollah came to power because of taped cassettes of his speeches were possible. Jesus cured a couple of dozen lepers, but our technology has made leprosy mostly a thing of the past. I know of no one who has ever met an active leper. The Internet has changed society and no longer is anyone with a satellite receiver isolated anymore. It will be interesting to see how the Internet has changed the most isolated places on the planet, like Tristan da Cunha, Pitcairn's Island, St. Helena, the Andamans,  Turks & Caicos, Cocos and Keeling, and so forth, in the next fifty years.

The most constant aspect of human civilization is change. If we founded a Perfect State tomorrow, within a generation it might still be perfect, but it would almost certainly be seen by the next generation as boring. People like change, even stupid change, such as wearing their pants so impossibly low that one needs to yank on them every ten seconds to avoid their falling completely off, or those Japanese kids who dye their hair blue and wear it in ten-inch gelled spikes. They do this because they consider normal fitting pants and the hair God gave all but albino Japanese boring and unstylish. There is little doubt that they would protest most vociferously if the society demanded pants that stayed up or hair of a more traditionally human hue.

So I do not see where a Perfect State is definable, let alone possible and sustainable. But that does not mean that we should cease trying to improve what we have. Most people are better off than they were 50 years ago, and nearly everyone's life is longer and more comfortable than it was 100 years ago.

[Michael Tee]

I think we're discussing two kinds of change here, XO, change for the sake of change, and change to escape the intolerable.

If a Communist Party anywhere succeeds in effecting change to escape from the intolerable and then finds its new society threatened by what are basically no more than idle thrill-seekers, then it needs to take whatever steps are necessary to protect its new society from the whims of the bored aesthetes.

I don't think you give enough credit to the malice of the dispossessed.  When a Communist Revolution succeeds, a lot of previously wealthy folks aren't wealthy any more.  They will do whatever it takes, kill, murder or torture, to get back their lost wealth.  Their class allies in neighbouring countries and in fact around the world, see the Revolution as a threat to their own wealth and power and will do whatever it takes to crush the Revolution at home and abroad.

The Revolution, in turn, must take whatever steps are necessary to protect its gains against the bored aesthetes and the dispossessed or those who live in fear or at risk of dispossession.  Usually the bored aesthetes can be put to work knowingly or unknowingly for those with more practical reasons to be enemies of the Revolution.

[sirs]

I have to say, it is refreshing to see someone embrace, with such enthusiasm, a political/Governmental structure, as evil as Naziism was.  When all else fails, gas, I mean, liquidate that resistance, with the wealthy ones still standing, those that have the power to control everyone else.  Viva la revolution

[Xavier_Onassis]

I think we're discussing two kinds of change here, XO, change for the sake of change, and change to escape the intolerable.

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Well, what is intolerable is a matter of opinion. When people are sufficiently obsessed, they can find anything intolerable. Like CU4 finds Iran intolerable and wishes that someday he does not have to share a planet with it, even though he has never been there.

 My point is that society and civilization are by their very nature in a constant state of flux. People can be starving, or simply ill-nourished to the point that 90% are obese, as has happened with those Indians in southern Arizona, whose traditional foods have been replaced with fast food and snacks and have become a tribe of diabetics. Or society can create an environment where most people are both well fed and well nourished. But whatever improvements are made, over the years technology and diversity will change many things.

Somehow, sirs thinks someone is advocating Nazism. But then, sirs is almost as nuts as the unfortunate Kramer. Less amusing, perhaps.

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It is true that the dispossessed aristocracy will fight to get their stuff back. Or even more stuff than they originally had.

The Puerto Ricans make fun of the Cubans by this verse from Guantanamera...

"Cuando salí de Cuba, dejé mi vida, dejé mi amor,
cuando salí de Cuba, dejé enterrado medio millón.

(When I left Cuba, I left my life, I left my love, When I left Cuba, I left a half million buried.)

Everyone in the first wave of immigrants claimed to be some sort of aristocrat, even many were used car salesmen, realtors and maitre 'd's

[Plane]

The usual announced official goal of Communism is the attainment of a state in which the citizen is converted into a "new Communist Man" and is no ,longer driven by competition and greed, .............
I see this as extremely wishful thinking. .................................
So I do not see where a Perfect State is definable, let alone possible and sustainable.

Well said , good post!


There is no kind of politics that has had or has any potential to have the life changing (for the better) effect , that modern plumbing has.


Politicians are able to tout their successes even when their successes are not any better than the previous condition.

Plumbers can't do that , nobody mistakes a successfull flush for anything less.

[sirs]

Somehow, sirs thinks someone is advocating Nazism.

Ummm, No, that would not be what sirs is advocating.  Shall we refer that as a lie?, a gross mispresentation?, or perhaps just simply wrong?  Care to try again??  Or is your quota for being wrong for the week been met yet?

[Xavier_Onassis]

This is what I said:

Somehow, sirs thinks someone is advocating Nazism. But then, sirs is almost as nuts as the unfortunate Kramer. Less amusing, perhaps.

Specifically, sirs thinks that MT is advocating Nazism. Which he is not.

[Plane]

 Nazism and Communism are diffrent in several ways , none of which matter to an American.

 Nazism and Communism are alike in a few ways , all of which are anathema to an American.

[sirs]

This is what I said:

Somehow, sirs thinks someone is advocating Nazism. But then, sirs is almost as nuts as the unfortunate Kramer. Less amusing, perhaps.

Specifically, sirs thinks that MT is advocating Nazism. Which he is not.

And ACCURATELY, sirs is thinking nothing of the sort.  This is what I said:
"I have to say, it is refreshing to see someone embrace, with such enthusiasm, a political/Governmental structure, as evil as Naziism was

I asked if you needed some help.  Instead, you just buried yourself all the more.  Was reading comprehension, not required to teach spanish??  I think you've indeed surpassed your quota for being wrong.  Push this more in the same direction, and you'd be reaching the level of lying      

[Amianthus]

This goes way beyond Lasix - - every doctor I know and every nutritionist wants to reduce dietary salt to an absolute minimum.

Well, actually, what I was thinking was that since his doctor has him on a maintenance dose of Lasix along with a potassium supplement, this indicates that XO is living with congestive heart failure (CHF). That combination is used to reduce liquid accumulation in the lungs and extremities, which is a symptom of CHF. Sodium counteracts that combination and increases the liquid accumulation, which can be deadly.

[Xavier_Onassis]

What I have, according to my GP and a cardiac specialist, is an arrhythmia. The lasix was prescribed to reduce a swelling in my ankles, and the Potassium Chloride pills are to replace the potassium that the lasix removes, according to my GP. If I do any amount of exercise, the swelling disappears.

I have never been told that I have Congestive Heart Failure, only an arrhythmia.

It is impossible to eliminate salt (NaCl) entirely from the diet, as it is included in basic foods. I occasionally put a couple of shakes of salt on a baked potato. I do not put salt on anything else. My blood pressure is normal to lower than average.

There seems to be something weird going on with the FDA and Potassium Chloride, as it is only sold as a prescription drug. But until fairly recently, KCl was sold as a salt substitute in the supermarket at a fraction of the prescription price. Now it seems to be unavailable without a prescription. I have never heard of any dangers of using KCL as a salt substitute in any publication.

A pharmacist I told about KCl being available in the supermarket seemed shocked. He said that it was poisonous and used as part of a combination of drugs used for carrying out the death penalty, which seems to be true, although it seems to be used only to facilitate the adsorption of the main drugs in the combination.

[Amianthus]

There seems to be something weird going on with the FDA and Potassium Chloride, as it is only sold as a prescription drug. But until fairly recently, KCl was sold as a salt substitute in the supermarket at a fraction of the prescription price. Now it seems to be unavailable without a prescription. I have never heard of any dangers of using KCL as a salt substitute in any publication.

It is sold under the trade names "No Salt" and "Nu Salt" - I bought some at the local grocery store last week. Heck, you can order it through Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/No-Salt-Regular-11-OZ/dp/B000PEFNF8

KCl is also one of the compounds in sea salt - most sea salt has lower sodium than table salt because of this.