Author Topic: Dealing with some of those terms: Islamofascism  (Read 5208 times)

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sirs

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Dealing with some of those terms: Islamofascism
« on: September 25, 2006, 03:39:03 PM »
As much as it might pain Js and others as to how inaccurate such a term is supposed to be, I'm going to keep calling a duck a duck, in this case.  And this op-ed helps that POV along

Islamic Fascism 101
On all they’ve done to earn the name.
By Victor Davis Hanson


Make no apologies for the use of “Islamic fascism.” It is the perfect nomenclature for the agenda of radical Islam, for a variety of historical and scholarly reasons. That such usage also causes extreme embarrassment to both the Islamists themselves and their leftist “anti-fascist” appeasers in the West is just too bad.
 
First, the general idea of “fascism” — the creation of a centralized authoritarian state to enforce blanket obedience to a reactionary, all-encompassing ideology — fits well the aims of contemporary Islamism that openly demands implementation of sharia law and the return to a Pan-Islamic and theocratic caliphate.

In addition, Islamists, as is true of all fascists, privilege their own particular creed of true believers by harkening back to a lost, pristine past, in which the devout were once uncorrupted by modernism.

True, bin Laden’s mythical Volk doesn’t bath in the clear icy waters of the Rhine untouched by the filth of the Tiber; but rather they ride horses and slice the wind with their scimitars in service of a soon to be reborn majestic world of caliphs and mullahs. Osama bin Laden sashaying in his flowing robes is not all that different from the obese Herman Goering in reindeer horns plodding around his Karinhall castle with suspenders and alpine shorts.

Because fascism is born out of insecurity and the sense of failure, hatred for Jews is de rigueur. To read al Qaeda’s texts is to reenter the world of Mein Kampf (naturally now known as jihadi in the Arab world). The crackpot minister of its ideology, Dr. Zawahiri, is simply a Dr. Alfred Rosenberg come alive — a similar quarter-educated buffoon, who has just enough of a vocabulary to dress up fascist venom in a potpourri of historical misreadings and pseudo-learning.

Envy and false grievance, as in the past with Italian, German, or Japanese whining, are always imprinted deeply within the fascist mind. After all, it can never quite figure out why the morally pure, the politically zealous, the ever more obedient are losing out to corrupt and decadent democracies — where “mixing,” either in the racial or religious sense, should instead have enervated the people.

The “will” of the German people, like the “Banzai” spirit of the Japanese, should always trump the cowardly and debased material superiority of decadent Western democracies. So al Qaeda boasts that in Somalia and Afghanistan the unshakeable creed of Islam overcame the richer and better equipped Americans and Russians. To read bin Laden’s communiqués is to be reminded of old Admiral Yamamato assuring his creepy peers that his years in the United States in the 1920s taught him that Roaring Twenties America, despite its fancy cars and skyscrapers, simply could not match the courage of the chosen Japanese.

Second, fascism thrives best in a once proud, recently humbled, but now ascendant, people. They are ripe to be deluded into thinking contemporary setbacks were caused by others and are soon to be erased through ever more zealotry. What Versailles and reparations were to Hitler’s new Germany, what Western colonialism and patronizing in the Pacific were to the rising sun of the Japanese, what the embarrassing image of the perennial sick man of Europe was to Mussolini’s new Rome, so too Israel, modernism, and America’s ubiquitous pop culture are to the Islamists, confident of a renaissance via vast petro-weatlh.

Such reactionary fascism is complex because it marries the present’s unhappiness with moping about a regal past — with glimpses of an even more regal future. Fascism is not quite the narcotic of the hopeless, but rather the opiate of the recently failed now on the supposed rebound who welcome the cheap fix of blaming others and bragging about their own iron will.

Third, while there is generic fascism, its variants naturally weave preexisting threads familiar to a culture at large. Hitler’s brand cribbed together notions of German will, Aryanism, and the cult of the Ubermensch from Hegel, Nietzsche, and Spengler, with ample Nordic folk romance found from Wagner to Tacitus’s Germania. Japanese militarism’s racist creed, fanaticism, and sense of historical destiny were a motley synthesis of Bushido, Zen and Shinto Buddhism, emperor worship, and past samurai legends. Mussolini’s fasces, and the idea of an indomitable Caesarian Duce (or Roman Dux), were a pathetic attempt to resurrect imperial Rome. So too Islamic fascism draws on the Koran, the career of Saladin, and the tracts of Nasserites, Baathists, and Muslim Brotherhood pamphleteers.

Fourth, just as it was idle in the middle of World War II to speculate how many Germans, Japanese, or Italians really accepted the silly hatred of Hitler, Mussolini, or Tojo, so too it is a vain enterprise to worry over how many Muslims follow or support al Qaeda, or, in contrast,  how many in the Middle East actively resist Islamists.

Most people have no ideology, but simply accommodate themselves to the prevailing sense of an agenda’s success or failure. Just as there weren’t more than a dozen vocal critics of Hitler after the Wehrmacht finished off France in six weeks in June of 1940, so too there wasn’t a Nazi to be found in June 1945 when Berlin lay in rubble.

It doesn’t matter whether Middle Easterners actually accept the tenets of bin Laden’s worldview — not if they think he is on the ascendancy, can bring them a sense of restored pride, and humiliate the Jews and the West on the cheap. Bin Laden is no more eccentric or impotent than Hitler was in the late 1920s.Yet if he can claim that his martyrs forced the United States out of Afghanistan and Iraq, toppled a petrol sheikdom or two, and acquired its wealth and influence — or if he got his hands on nuclear weapons and lorded it over appeasing Westerners — then he too, like the Fuhrer in the 1930s, will become untouchable. The same is true of Iran’s president Ahmadinejad.

Fifth, fascism springs from untruth and embraces lying. Hitler had contempt for those who believed him after Czechoslovakia. He broke every agreement from Munich to the Soviet non-aggression pact. So did the Japanese, who were sending their fleet to Pearl Harbor even as they talked of a new diplomatic breakthrough.

Al-Zawahiri in his writings spends an inordinate amount of effort excusing al Qaeda’s lies by referring to the Koranic notions of tactical dissimulation. We remember Arafat saying one thing in English and another in Arabic, and bin Laden denying responsibility for September 11 and then later boasting of it. Nothing a fascist says can be trusted, since all means are relegated to the ends of seeing their ideology reified. So too Islamic fascists, by any means necessary, will fib, and hedge for the cause of Islamism. Keep that in mind when considering Iran’s protestations about its “peaceful” nuclear aims.

We can argue whether the present-day Islamic fascists have the military means comparable to what was had in the past by Nazis, Fascists, and militarists — I think a dirty bomb is worth the entire Luftwaffe, one nuclear missile all the striking power of the Japanese imperial Navy — but there should be no argument over who they are and what they want. They are fascists of an Islamic sort, pure and simple.
 
And the least we can do is to call them that: after all, they earned it.
 

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OGEyNjcyNzBjYTQ2MDM0ZGIzZjY5YjhhMzViYjdjNTA=
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: Dealing with some of those terms: Islamofascism
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2006, 05:25:08 PM »
Quote
there should be no argument over who they are and what they want. They are fascists of an Islamic sort, pure and simple

Interesting...
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: Dealing with some of those terms: Islamofascism
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2006, 05:32:34 PM »
Interesting...

I thought so.  And I appreciate you not simply discarding the piece, based solely on its subject
« Last Edit: September 25, 2006, 05:35:15 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Dealing with some of those terms: Islamofascism
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2006, 08:43:48 PM »
<<That such usage also causes extreme embarrassment to both the Islamists themselves and their leftist “anti-fascist” appeasers in the West is just too bad. >>

LMFAO.  The term is an embarrassment only to its inventors and users.  But dream on, Zionists and Zionist apologists.

This article is just too long and too stupid to waste any time on.  Essentially it begins with a hand-crafted definition of fascism different from any other definition of fascism that ever existed until the Zionist bullshit machine came up with "Islamofascism" as a term of art, which is specially edited to apply to . . . you guessed it!  to the current anti-Zionist, anti-American Islamic fundamentalist guerrilla movements originally sponsored by Americans and Saudis to fight the Russians in Afghanistan.

Once you accept this new definition of "fascism," it is a foregone conclusion that it will apply to al Qaeda and similar movements.  Thus, Al Qaeda is an Islamofascist.  Q.E.D.

Michael Tee

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Re: Dealing with some of those terms: Islamofascism
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2006, 08:53:08 PM »
But I wanna play the "create your own definition" game too!  Why should conservatives and Zionists have all the fun?

Is Bush a Nazi?  Well, that depends on your definition of Nazi, doesn't it?  How about this: 

Nazi (nah'-tzee) (a) a member of the NSDAP (National Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiters Partei) or (b) one of the living descendants of George Herbert Walker Bush and Barbara Bush.

You see, when you consider carefully the true definition of "Nazi," then it is beyond doubt that George W. Bush is a Nazi, no matter how much embarassment this may cause to the Bush family or their apologists.  Too bad for them.

sirs

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Re: Dealing with some of those terms: Islamofascism
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2006, 09:00:41 PM »
The term is an embarrassment only to its inventors and users.  But dream on, Zionists and Zionist apologists.  This article is just too long and too stupid to waste any time on

Now that's the Tee, we all know in love, at his dosconnected best     ;D    And here's a perfect toon for the occasion


« Last Edit: September 25, 2006, 09:30:25 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: Dealing with some of those terms: Islamofascism
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2006, 09:42:27 AM »
Quote
And I appreciate you not simply discarding the piece, based solely on its subject

Sirs, I could write a good reply and discuss why the National Review's piece is using a completely incoherent and trite definition of fascism, but why?

You'd refuse to actually read it with any objectivity. I have no evidence to show that anyone else actually reads that stuff either. I don't think you or others like you actually bother to understand the history and political philosophy of Fascism or even Arab fascism enough to care. So, I'm not sure why you are complaining to me about discarding the piece when I put enough effort to write a long, original piece that will simply be discarded or ignored anyway.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: Dealing with some of those terms: Islamofascism
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2006, 11:21:52 AM »
I could write a good reply and discuss why the National Review's piece is using a completely incoherent and trite definition of fascism, but why?   You'd refuse to actually read it with any objectivity.

Well, you'd be wrong.  And I could add to that precisely the same proclaimation, so probably best that you didn't.  But again, I appreciate that you actually took the time to read the piece
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Dealing with some of those terms: Islamofascism
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2006, 12:32:03 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamofascism


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism


Umberto Eco
In a 1995 essay "Eternal Fascism" [4], the Italian writer and academic Umberto Eco attempts to list general properties of fascist ideolgy. He claims that it is not possible to organise these into a coherent system, but that " it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it". He uses the term "Ur-fascism" as a generic description of different historical forms of fascism.

The features of fascism he lists are as follows:

"The Cult of Tradition", combining cultural syncretism with a rejection of modernism (often disguised as a rejection of capitalism).
"The Cult of Action for Action's Sake", which dicatates that action is of value in itself, and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.
"Disagreement is Treason" - fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action.
"Fear of Difference", which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.
"Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class", fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.
"Obsession With a Plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often involves an appeal to xenophobia or the identification of an internal security threat. He cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.
"Pacifism is Trafficking With the Enemy" because "Life is Permanent Warfare" - there must always be an enemy to fight.
"Contempt for the Weak" - although a fascist society is elitist, everybody in the society is educated to become a hero.
"Selective Populism" - the People have a common will, which is not delegated but interpreted by a leader. This may involve doubt being cast upon a democratic institution, because "it no longer represents the Voice of the People".
"Newspeak" - fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.





Some simularity  ... is evident.


What is the particular dissimularity that makes "islamofascism" na inappropriate term?

sirs

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Re: Dealing with some of those terms: Islamofascism
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2006, 12:44:54 AM »
Some simularity  ... is evident.  What is the particular dissimularity that makes "islamofascism" na inappropriate term?

I think its because it's not politically correct, Plane
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: Dealing with some of those terms: Islamofascism
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2006, 12:56:43 PM »
Quote
I think its because it's not politically correct

You see? That right there is why I don't bother with a decent reply.

Plane takes the time to at least find an article that references an academic article and makes an argument for similarity from that. The response? "It's not politically correct."

I commend you Plane, for trying to make a decent debate out of this. Part of me really wants to engage in the debate with an academic look at the political philosophy and history of fascism. Yet, another part is fairly certain that there is no point because of inane and quite honestly puerile comments such as this one by Sirs.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: Dealing with some of those terms: Islamofascism
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2006, 01:40:49 PM »
You see? That right there is why I don't bother with a decent reply.  Plane takes the time to at least find an article that references an academic article and makes an argument for similarity from that. The response? "It's not politically correct."

Last time I used official accepted difinitions and such, I was similarly denounced Js.  I find both reference pieces and well articulated op-eds to reinforce both the term & application of Islamofascism, but all you can do is ridicule it, & claim how that doesn't warrant a "decent reply".  Interesting double standard we have here. 

I will concede Plane is much better at remaining civil and non-condescending than I, with his posts.  He probably also has more patience in dealing with folks who just want to bury their heads in the sand, as it relates to militant Islam malignancy
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

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Re: Dealing with some of those terms: Islamofascism
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2006, 02:35:22 PM »
OK.

I'll start with Eco's essay. First, I'd advise reading the entire essay to understand completely what he's talking about.

Quote
"The Cult of Tradition", combining cultural syncretism with a rejection of modernism (often disguised as a rejection of capitalism).
"The Cult of Action for Action's Sake", which dicatates that action is of value in itself, and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.
"Disagreement is Treason" - fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action.
"Fear of Difference", which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.
"Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class", fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.
"Obsession With a Plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often involves an appeal to xenophobia or the identification of an internal security threat. He cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.
"Pacifism is Trafficking With the Enemy" because "Life is Permanent Warfare" - there must always be an enemy to fight.
"Contempt for the Weak" - although a fascist society is elitist, everybody in the society is educated to become a hero.
"Selective Populism" - the People have a common will, which is not delegated but interpreted by a leader. This may involve doubt being cast upon a democratic institution, because "it no longer represents the Voice of the People".
"Newspeak" - fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.

Cult of Tradition? Maybe. Clearly this wasn't the case for the 9/11 attackers, some of whom enjoyed alcohol, women, and modern conveniences. This might apply to the Taleban, but certainly not to other terrorist organisations such as Hezbollah or Hamas.

Action for Action's Sake: Interesting. I'd argue that this is more apparent in the American extreme right. Attacks on modern culture and science? Certainly we see that here everyday with attacks on scientific findings on the environment, attacks on evolution, or disbelief in scientific knowledge in general. Attacks on modern culture is a mainstay of the Evangelical movement.

Attacking intellectualism and seeing it as a weakness is also commonplace here in the United States. Demonising academics and professors is common practice. This may occur in the Middle East as well, but is certainly a check mark for our own right wing.

Disagreement is Treason: For this one I think the essay helps expound some (if I recall correctly).

Fear of Difference: Common here, though I'm sure it is in Islamic groups as well.

Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class: OK, I see how this applied to the political philosophy of Fascism. This is a good point really. Hitler was an expert with this, and this is one reason Fascism found popularity in areas were Communism did not. How does radical Islam appeal to a frustrated middle class?

Pacifism is Trafficking With the Enemy: You hear that here. Sirs has posted cartoons that imply the very same.

Newspeak: Yep.

To be honest, I see as much or more that could be applied to the right wing here (and occasionally the left for that matter) as to radical Islam. Also, Eco was discussing what he called Ur-fascism not Fascism.

I'll get to the op-ed piece next...

I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Plane

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Re: Dealing with some of those terms: Islamofascism
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2006, 11:18:41 PM »
OK.

I'll start with Eco's essay. First, I'd advise reading the entire essay to understand completely what he's talking about.

Pacifism is Trafficking With the Enemy: You hear that here. Sirs has posted cartoons that imply the very same.

Newspeak: Yep.

To be honest, I see as much or more that could be applied to the right wing here (and occasionally the left for that matter) as to radical Islam. Also, Eco was discussing what he called Ur-fascism not Fascism.

I'll get to the op-ed piece next...




Hess was more purely Fascist than Goreing  but it would be rediculous to say that Goreing was less than Fascist just because he was not Fascist in every possible respect.

Fascisism that merely makes the trains run on time would be sort of tolerable , if it were lacking some of its aspects that caused harm.

If Islamists are becomeing like Fascists in a few important respects , then they deserve the appilation even if they fail to fit in less important aspects.


Do I take it as given that you are in agreement with Umberto Echo in these catagorical definitions?

If you agree with the essay by Echo , what part or what Features of Fascism would you consider the important ones?









ON the side,

Go on and respond to Sirs , but be an example in your response of what you would like his posts to be like.

_JS

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Re: Dealing with some of those terms: Islamofascism
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2006, 09:10:41 AM »
Quote
Hess was more purely Fascist than Goreing  but it would be rediculous to say that Goreing was less than Fascist just because he was not Fascist in every possible respect.

True, but both were proud to call themselves Fascists. This is an interesting missing point from Sirs analogy. The right wing in the United States is ver keen on calling the radical elements of Islam fascists. Yet, the true historical fascists wore the title proudly, but we don't see that with the so called "Islamo-fascists" do we?

Quote
If Islamists are becomeing like Fascists in a few important respects , then they deserve the appilation even if they fail to fit in less important aspects.

Yet, are you willing to apply that same logic to this country? The list is broad and remember Eco's point that this is Ur-fascism not Fascism. He makes the distinction clear, why?

I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.