Author Topic: The Reason The Knutester Wins All His Debates: He graduated from CSUF  (Read 4281 times)

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Mucho

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No Shit! And that was nearly 40 years ago! It is great to know your Alma Mater emulates you.


http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-me-debate12dec12,0,2834471.story?coll=la-headlines-frontpage
COLUMN ONE

Does this debase debate?
College forensics once stuck strictly to words. Now it can come off the page -- way off.
By Roy Rivenburg
Times Staff Writer

December 12, 2006

IMAGINE a presidential debate in which John McCain answers Hillary Clinton's arguments by stripping down to his underwear or breaking into a rap song.

Strange as it might sound, such tactics are gaining cachet — and victories — in a top breeding ground for future politicians: America's college debate circuit.

In recent years, renegade rhetoricians from Cal State Fullerton and other underdog schools have clobbered debate kingpins from Harvard and UC Berkeley with a hodgepodge of unorthodox methods known as "performance debating."

Instead of relying on scholarly research to foil opponents, the teams employ guerrilla tactics such as reading from Dr. Seuss, impersonating pirates or ballroom dancing with a chair.

"People call us the terrorists of debate," says Fullerton student Brenda Montes.

The goal of performance debate is threefold: Knock rivals off stride, impress judges with creative forms of argument and open the heavily white-male field to new voices.

The methods have sparked an uproar. Purists say the gimmicks are wrecking a noble tradition. But supporters insist the techniques are returning the art of persuasion to its roots.

"Debate is the greatest educational experience you've never heard about," said Jon Bruschke, who coaches Cal State Fullerton's team. "We're trying to make it available to everyone."

From Plato to Lincoln-Douglas to Reagan-Mondale, debaters have always searched for ways to outwit their adversaries.

In college tournaments, the longtime weapon of choice is speed-talking. The idea is to cram so many arguments into a speech that rival teams run out of time to rebut everything. To untrained ears, the rapid-fire verbiage sounds like an auctioneer on amphetamines.

But the research-saturated spiels stack the deck against small debate squads, said Bill Neesen, who coaches a performance team at Long Beach State.

Whereas a big-budget school like Northwestern or USC can steamroll into a tournament with a dozen people who do nothing but scout opponents and plot counterarguments, Long Beach has no backup.

"The big schools outstrip us on research," Neesen said.

So Long Beach borrows from a playbook devised by a former mortician, a Grateful Dead fanatic and a guy with a penchant for Hawaiian shirts and sandals with socks. The rebels' bag of tricks hinges on a simple rule: Everything in debate is debatable, including the rules of debate.

The pioneer in exploiting that loophole was Bill Shanahan, a Deadhead who ran the squad at the University of Texas at Austin in the early 1990s.

In a debate on foreign aid to underdeveloped nations, Shanahan's team turned the proceedings upside down, arguing that the concept of "helping" poor countries falsely implied that the Third World was inferior to the West. His students challenged the framework of the debate topic itself, saying it "imposed a racist, monetarist" view.

As Texas racked up victories, "smaller programs realized they could use this technique to compete against big-budget programs," Shanahan said.

A few years later, former funeral director Ede Warner and Bruschke, a shaggy-haired Hawaiian shirt aficionado, expanded the concept. The two men had first crossed paths in the shadow of a pork processing plant in Sioux Falls, S.D., where they were teammates on Augustana College's debate squad.

After graduation, Warner returned to the family funeral business in violence-prone Gary, Ind. Saddened by the number of young blacks he saw in caskets, the African American undertaker decided he was "on the wrong end of the equation."

Maybe debate could "empower black students," Warner figured. He landed a job coaching the University of Louisville debate squad but had trouble recruiting minority students to an activity dominated by Ivy Leaguers quoting obscure postmodernist philosophers.

Then Warner had an epiphany. "We're going to debate issues of race no matter what the topic is," he declared. That led to replacing scholarly evidence with quotes from "organic intellectuals" such as rap singers.

The shift enabled him to attract students with no debate experience. And Louisville catapulted to national prominence.

A similar Cinderella story unfolded at Fullerton, where Bruschke, Warner's former classmate, had assumed the helm. Bruschke stumbled onto performance debating in 1997, when his team faced top-ranked Emory University at a tournament. Arguing the topic of how to deal with unexploded mines in Vietnam, a Fullerton debater unexpectedly transformed a discourse on Jean-Paul Sartre and personal responsibility into a story about how she was molested as a child.

"I had no idea what she was doing," Bruschke said, but somehow she tied it all back to mines.

The audience was stunned. Fullerton advanced to the final four, and Bruschke realized the power of personal narratives.

"Traditional debaters say the only evidence that matters is library research," he said. "We say personal experience is equally important." Bruschke points out that Aristotle ranked emotion equal to logic as a tool in seeking truth.

To win, performance teams must first persuade the debate judge to base the decision more on style of presentation than purely on content. So they spend part of the debate arguing over which method most effectively addresses the topic. Under Bruschke, Fullerton debaters have ranked as high as No. 2 in national tournaments.

"He has done a marvelous job taking kids whose parents didn't even go to high school … and turning them into powerful speakers and advocates," said Harvard coach Dallas Perkins.

Meanwhile, the godfather of performance debate, Shanahan, moved from Texas to Fort Hays State University in Kansas, where he began sprinkling debates with Lakota Indian chants and videos of static.

"Once the floodgates opened, there was an explosion of different techniques," Shanahan said.

There was also a backlash, especially toward Louisville's racially tinged presentations. "Some people got to the point of near-violence, they were so frustrated," Shanahan recalled.

Performance teams "have pretty much started to ruin traditional debate and what it offers students educationally," said Ken Sherwood, director of forensics at Los Angeles City College.

In the past, debaters had to research both sides of an issue. "It taught students there's always another side and it forced them to understand the opposition," Sherwood said. "If you do that, you're better able to defend your own perspective."

In contrast, performance squads focus on personal stories and theatrics that often have little to do with the topic, he said.

Defenders of alternative tactics say they're simply trying to "level the playing field" against students who have been honing debate skills since high school, often at elite private campuses.

But Sherwood disputes the idea that underprivileged students need gimmickry to compete. "My program has brought more people from disadvantaged backgrounds into debate than Louisville, Fullerton and Long Beach combined," he said.

Harvard's Perkins said it's true that performance debating can shortchange students on research skills, but he still admires the movement. "It has strengthened the game and made it more demanding," Perkins said.

At a recent Malibu contest, Brett Beeler of Cal State Fullerton stopped mid-sentence in a debate and asked teammate Caitlin Gray for a document.

As she rummaged around, Beeler impatiently left the podium and whispered heatedly at her. The tiff escalated, and suddenly he slapped her.

The judge of the debate came unglued. "You need to leave right now!" he shouted at Beeler.

But the slap was an act — a way to breathe life into the otherwise dry debate topic, a court case involving domestic violence.

"I really did believe it was an incident of domestic abuse," said the judge, Orion Steele, a professor at the University of Redlands. "It took me a good half-hour to cool down." Then he awarded the victory to Fullerton.

Each of Fullerton's two-person debate squads uses a strategy tailored to individual members' backgrounds.

Puja Chopra and Parija Patel, both of Indian descent, sit down and meditate in debates to symbolize that arguing over legislation is pointless because true change must come from within.

Another duo cranks up a stereo and delivers arguments with homespun rap lyrics. When opponents complained that rap wasn't an acceptable way to debate, Fullerton countered with a swipe at speed-talking. "The way you talk is understood by fewer than 2,000 people in America," debater Dale Morrison said. Rap has a better chance of influencing listeners, he said.

Some schools get so swept up challenging Fullerton's tactics that they forget to rebut the team's arguments, Bruschke said. He estimates 10% of college squads use performance tactics.

When performance teams face each other, things can get pretty weird. Long Beach State once faced two women from Concordia College in Minnesota who stripped down to G-strings and talked about reclaiming their bodies from objectification by men.

The all-male California team couldn't get past the distraction. "Their brains left them," said Neesen, their coach.

Another contest pitted a Fort Hays student dancing with a chair against a Northwestern team reading the script of "Dr. Strangelove." The topic was federal control of Native American land.

"It was a wild debate," Shanahan said. "Strangelove" prevailed.

Part of a performance squad's success depends on the element of surprise. "It's classic guerrilla warfare," Bruschke said. "Your tactics have to constantly change or you lose your advantage to superior force."

Shanahan once judged a match in which a team used nine minutes of silence to signify that African Americans had no voice on a policy matter.

"It was powerful," Shanahan said. But when other schools began copying the ploy, it wore thin. "After you hear it 15 or 20 times, it becomes passe," he said. "The bar gets raised."

Ultimately, the endless quest for novelty could doom the new form.

"It's getting to the point where it's hard to do something that really challenges the boundaries, because the boundaries have been all but eliminated," Shanahan said. "It's hard to say where things will go next."

*

roy.rivenburg@latimes.com



« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 01:39:53 PM by Mucho »

Mucho

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Re: The Reason The Knutster Wins All His Debates: He graduated from CSUF
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2006, 11:58:23 AM »
Yet more on my Titan Talkers.

http://campusapps.fullerton.edu/news/2006/debate_team.htm

The only bad thing is that our mascot is an elephant. Yucko!



Plane

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Re: The Reason The Knutester Wins All His Debates: He graduated from CSUF
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2006, 02:27:10 PM »
This is very interesting.

I was under the impression that Logic was availible to the Poor just as well as the rich.

And that Debate enthroned Logic.


This is an interestiong alternative approach .

Mucho

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Re: The Reason The Knutester Wins All His Debates: He graduated from CSUF
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2006, 04:30:33 PM »
This is very interesting.

I was under the impression that Logic was availible to the Poor just as well as the rich.

And that Debate enthroned Logic.


This is an interestiong alternative approach .

It is known as reality. Of course , that is something with which Repubs have little experience.

Universe Prince

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Re: The Reason The Knutester Wins All His Debates: He graduated from CSUF
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2006, 06:43:12 PM »
So students are learning to win debates not by making a better argument but by making better performance art. Topic, logic, reason, facts be damned, as long as they can create a style of performance that the judges like. In other words, performance sophistry. No wonder Mucho likes it.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Mucho

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Re: The Reason The Knutester Wins All His Debates: He graduated from CSUF
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2006, 07:16:42 PM »
So students are learning to win debates not by making a better argument but by making better performance art. Topic, logic, reason, facts be damned, as long as they can create a style of performance that the judges like. In other words, performance sophistry. No wonder Mucho likes it.

Yes & they are beating the beeeJesus out of all the stuck in the mud anal major colleges & universities as well.

Cal State Fullerton's Debate Team Ends Year on a Winning Note
CSUF debate team extends winning streak to four years in a row, defeating teams from Harvard, USC, Northwestern and Berkeley.

May 18, 2006
By VALERIE ORLEANS

Rack up another winning season! Once again the Cal State Fullerton team has ended their season on a high note and added to an above–average winning record that includes victories over such favorites as Harvard, USC, Northwestern and Berkeley.

This year, the team completed the season by competing at the National Debate Tournament (NDT) and the Cross Examination Debate Association (CEDA) tournament.

"The NDT is smaller and more prestigious, while the CEDA national tournament is larger and open to all competitors," said Jon Bruschke, associate professor of human communication studies and team coach. Sophomore Luis Magallon and junior Brenda Montes qualified for the NDT and after eight preliminary debates, advanced to the single–elimination round. They are only the third CSUF team since 1997 to advance to that level. Montes was awarded the fourthspeaker distinction — the best finish in team history.

At CEDA, the pair advanced to round 32 where they lost a 2–1 decision. Magallon was named fifth speaker, and Montes was ranked second. (Much as basketball teams earn wins and losses but individuals score points, debaters are judged as part of a team and as individuals.) Only two schools finished with two debaters in the top five: One was Harvard, the other was CSUF.

"Debating is so intense and so high energy," said Bruschke. He and fellow coach Jeanine Conglaton have gone on to produce one winning team after another.

"You spend huge amounts of time on research, and it builds you up intellectually. Most debaters are a little quirky — they have a lot to say, and this is a different way for them to say it."

This year, China was the focus of the national debates. With the issue centered on a country, debaters have to be knowledgeable on topics ranging from medicine, to the one–child policy, to contemporary philosophy.

Before each individual debate, team members are told whether they will be arguing the affirmative or negative position on their specific topic, said Bruschke. They then develop a nine–minute speech on the spot, using the research they've completed over the season. It requires debaters to be prepared to argue in favor of a position in one round and against it the next, he explained.

Debaters speak rapidly — often from 400 to 800 words a minute, rather than the 140 of normal speaking — trying to get across as many points as possible. Why? To generate points, Bruschke said. "If you don't respond to all the issues that are presented, points are subtracted. The idea is to raise so many issues that your opponent can't meet them all," he noted. Bruschke, however, has a different approach that seems to work.

"Our students choose to speak from passion and experience," he said. "Yes, you need to be able to respond to arguments that are raised, but I think it's a much more effective debate if you can speak from the heart.

"What I appreciate about my team is how they support each other," Bruschke said. "This isn't about winning a pile of trophies. This is about them developing into caring individuals. I'm not as interested in how they are as debaters. I'm interested in what they're like as human beings."




http://campusapps.fullerton.edu/news/2006/debate_team.htm

Plane

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Re: The Reason The Knutester Wins All His Debates: He graduated from CSUF
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2006, 11:20:43 PM »
The victory over reason.

Plane

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Re: The Reason The Knutester Wins All His Debates: He graduated from CSUF
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2006, 11:35:35 PM »
Quote
"...Americans have embraced intellectual and moral bunkum in all things. As a culture, we've fallen hard core for superficial reasoning, logic that's false on its very face, and a deep disregard for information that isn't predigested to conform to what we already want to believe. Ours is a senescent culture..."


http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1148830157.shtml

Mucho

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Re: The Reason The Knutester Wins All His Debates: He graduated from CSUF
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2006, 01:13:11 AM »
Quote
"...Americans have embraced intellectual and moral bunkum in all things. As a culture, we've fallen hard core for superficial reasoning, logic that's false on its very face, and a deep disregard for information that isn't predigested to conform to what we already want to believe. Ours is a senescent culture..."


http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1148830157.shtml

Sounds like the RW for sure.

Lanya

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Re: The Reason The Knutester Wins All His Debates: He graduated from CSUF
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2006, 02:34:10 AM »
Not to down your school, but  I thought that Liberty University (College?) was tops in the debate field.  Falwell's school.
Planned Parenthood is America’s most trusted provider of reproductive health care.

Mucho

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Re: The Reason The Knutester Wins All His Debates: He graduated from CSUF
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2006, 10:15:23 AM »
Not to down your school, but  I thought that Liberty University (College?) was tops in the debate field.  Falwell's school.

No- It is just that a Xtian school can even do it that is remarkable :

http://www.liberty.edu/index.cfm?printpage=y&PID=162

And , of course, being so Xtian, they cheat:

Debate
Liberty's Inter-Collegiate policy debate program, led by Brett O'Donnell, has been number one in overall rankings in the National Debate Tournament for 2005 and 2006.[3][4] The touting of this by Liberty and in the press[5] has lead to some controversy, as the overall ranking included results for novice and junior varsity debates. In varsity rankings, Liberty was twentieth in 2005 and seventeenth in 2006.
As reported by ABC News[6] and the Associated Press[7] the Liberty Debate team accumulates points by sending lots of teams to small tournaments while avoiding known debate champions like Michigan State, Berkeley, Dartmouth and Harvard, instead favoring lesser ranked opponents like Kings College and Richmond.
Criticism of the debate program extends to the Christian community as well. John Lofton of The American View Christian radio show accused Liberty University of not being "a truly Christian college" when Jerry Falwell gave permission for the debate team to debate in favor of abortion when required to.[8] The issue arose when the team was faced with the need to argue for abortion rights or give up the debate program for that year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_University

It is , after all, the quality, not the quantity , of debate that counts. This is why I always clean UPeeWee & Sirs clocks.  ::)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 10:41:04 AM by Mucho »

Amianthus

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Re: The Reason The Knutester Wins All His Debates: He graduated from CSUF
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2006, 10:57:52 AM »
This is why I always clean UPeeWee & Sirs clocks.

When debates are judged on lies and gratuitous insults, I've always said you were the king of that group.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Lanya

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Re: The Reason The Knutester Wins All His Debates: He graduated from CSUF
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2006, 04:21:09 PM »
Mucho---

Ok, I see how they work it now.  Wonder why they don't want to debate the powerhouses?  They seem pretty good, you'd think it would be like the US wanting the Olympics NOT to have Russia, etc.    An easy win is all they want? 

The reason I think they're so good is that they have to learn how to explain their beliefs.

I heard a preacher explain very convincingly some point in the Bible.  One verse completely contradicted another verse.
The funny thing is, I can't remember what the contentious point was, it was something I'd never heard of. 
It was a complete waste of an hour.  It was parsing words, "depends on what the definition of IS is..." kind of stuff.   

So if you believe several contradictory things, and someone calls you on it, you had better get your crack debating team boots on.
Planned Parenthood is America’s most trusted provider of reproductive health care.

Mucho

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Re: The Reason The Knutester Wins All His Debates: He graduated from CSUF
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2006, 05:28:16 PM »
Mucho---

Ok, I see how they work it now.  Wonder why they don't want to debate the powerhouses?  They seem pretty good, you'd think it would be like the US wanting the Olympics NOT to have Russia, etc.    An easy win is all they want? 

The reason I think they're so good is that they have to learn how to explain their beliefs.

I heard a preacher explain very convincingly some point in the Bible.  One verse completely contradicted another verse.
The funny thing is, I can't remember what the contentious point was, it was something I'd never heard of. 
It was a complete waste of an hour.  It was parsing words, "depends on what the definition of IS is..." kind of stuff.   

So if you believe several contradictory things, and someone calls you on it, you had better get your crack debating team boots on.


Nearly all these far right Xtians are phonies & crooks. A Poli Sci instructor of mine whose father was a Lutheran minister told me that his Dad said that you can never trust an Xtian businessman. Because they tithe 10% , they feel they can rip the rest of US off for 50%+ more.

Amianthus

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Re: The Reason The Knutester Wins All His Debates: He graduated from CSUF
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2006, 05:53:29 PM »
Nearly all these far right Xtians are phonies & crooks. A Poli Sci instructor of mine whose father was a Lutheran minister told me that his Dad said that you can never trust an Xtian businessman. Because they tithe 10% , they feel they can rip the rest of US off for 50%+ more.

What a load of AMBE.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)