We need more Governors like Arizona Governor Jan Brewer!

[Xavier_Onassis]

The laws that govern the universe do not exist separately from the matter or energy that they affect. They are an integral attributes.

[bsb]

>>Going by this definition then, every possible combination of "physical laws" exist *in theory* and therefore your argument that "there is a finite number of causes to a finite number of effects" is wrong? You're either wrong on the one side, or the other.<<

Not at all. There is a finite number of causes to a finite number of effects in this universe but in another universe things that are not possible here might be possible in that one. However, that universe would also have only a finite number of possibilities within it. Further, the laws that might exists in that universe would also be a theoretical possibility before the universe was created. Further still, that does not mean that an infinite number of universes, with differing laws with in them, is a possibility.

This maybe over your head Ami, but I appreciate the effort. It's the only way for you to learn. However, try opening up your mind a tad.

bsb

[bsb]

>>The laws that govern the universe do not exist separately from the matter or energy that they affect. They are an integral attributes.<<

Apparently you're not a math teacher. And again, you're missing the point. If these laws weren't a mathematical possibility before they appeared we would never see their appearance.

Problems regarding the universe are attempted to be understood using math all the time. Conclusions/theories are come to constantly regarding possibilities long before the thing they are searching for is found.

bsb

[Xavier_Onassis]

Actually, the laws that govern the universe are descriptions of the ways that matter and energy behave in the universe. It's not like someone wrote the laws and then custom-made matter and energy to fit the laws.

[Amianthus]

Apparently you're not a math teacher. And again, you're missing the point. If these laws weren't a mathematical possibility before they appeared we would never see their appearance.

The physical laws are descriptions of the interaction of the 4 basic forces (electromagnetism, gravity, nuclear weak, and nuclear strong) with the space-time of the universe. We use mathematics to *describe* them, but they are not reliant on mathematics. Mathematics is a tool we designed for our understanding, not a part of the universe.

Mathematics can be used to describe any combination of physical forces, not just those we observe in the universe around us. Like any good tool, it can be used for many things. And it can describe an infinite number of universes, so again, you're arguing against your point of a large but finite set of possibilities.

[bsb]

Look people, no one said anyone wrote the laws and then custom made the universe to fit them. No one said math was anything but a tool. And the laws of a universe being a mathematical possibility prior to the creation of a universe does not make said universe  rift with an unlimited number of possibilities.

This isn't rocket surgery. (since I need to explain everything I said, that's a joke)

bsb

[Xavier_Onassis]

Well, so you agree with me.

If I say it, it seems to suggest to you that I am spouting the obvious, but apparently when you say it, it verifies your brilliance.

There is this belief that God, as architect of the Universe, must have required the math and the descriptions of these laws to construct the Universe. Hence my comment, as I find the theory that the Universe was created by an omnipotent entity to be implausable.

I believe we agree on this as well.

[bsb]

A) It's blue

B) It is not pink

A) I never said it was pink

B) So you agree with me then

[Xavier_Onassis]

I certainly would agree with you that it is not pink. It COULD be blue. I have not actually seen it.