Author Topic: Here's a bad omen for the Dem Party  (Read 9211 times)

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BSB

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Re: Here's a bad omen for the Dem Party
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2011, 12:08:37 AM »
Obama, and congress, caved to the money carrying lobbyists, not to the moderate Democrats. While we got short changed I can assure you none of them did.


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Michael Tee

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Re: Here's a bad omen for the Dem Party
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2011, 12:57:11 AM »
<<Obama, and congress, caved to the money carrying lobbyists, not to the moderate Democrats. While we got short changed I can assure you none of them did. >>

So who did the moderate Democrats take their orders from?  The same lobbyists that give Obama his orders.

If Obama had wanted to buck the lobby, he would have had to go for the original proposal with[ the public option, watch the GOP shoot it down with the help of the moderate Democrats, and THEN (1) moved to turf the "moderates" from the Democratic Party and (2) positioned the Democrats without the moderates to run against "the Party of Wall Street."

Obviously, Obama has no desire to buck the lobby.  As I think the Occupy! people have seen from the start, Obama and the Democrats generally are as much a part of the problem as the GOP.  Both have been corrupted by the same special interests,  including Wall Street and the biggest corporations.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Here's a bad omen for the Dem Party
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2011, 01:12:51 AM »
I'll take my chances with either of them.

=================================
Unlikely in the extreme that you will have the chance to vote for them, except as write ins.

Gingrich has absolutely zero chance. Cain is 90 to one against getting the nomination, at least.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 10:15:07 AM by Xavier_Onassis »
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BSB

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Re: Here's a bad omen for the Dem Party
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2011, 02:21:16 AM »
"Democrats generally are as much a part of the problem as the GOP."

Of Course.  Obama and crowd are trying to blame the GOP for the gridlock in congress. Nonsense. The democrats are just as responsible.

The real problem is the cynicism it provokes in the rest of the country.  A populace that presents a healthy amount of skepticism is a good thing for a nation, but cynicism is a different animal. Too much of the latter is a bad thing.

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Michael Tee

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Re: Here's a bad omen for the Dem Party
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2011, 06:41:57 AM »
The Occupy! people seem to be disillusioned, not cynical.  Cynical people are like me - - we sit on our ass, pick out all the flaws in the system and do jack-shit to fix the situation except bitch about it when the spirit moves.

Occupy Wall Street! seems to recognize that the system, however well it may have worked in the distant past, is kaputt.  FUBAR.  They know it can't be fixed and so they are not bothering to try to fix it in the traditional ways - - i.e., offering themselves as "change" candidates or going out and busting their ass for whoever promises hope and change.  Been there, done that.  Fool me once . . .  etc.  What they are saying is, the system can't be fixed, we need a new one.  And in the general assemblies (the models for which came from Madrid and Athens, but which show echoes of the Columbia Strike and the Parisian Days of May of 1968 and even earlier models - - the workers' and peasants' soviets of 1917) they are engaged in a democratic, deliberative process to try to determine the way forward.  This may take some time.

I think these guys have seen some truths that the general American public is slow to realize - - that not only is the system fucked, but it has passed the point of no return.  In other words, the same special interests that have corrupted (bought and paid for) both political parties and their leading candidates have also succeeded over a thirty-year period in abolishing the legal restrictions (including anti-trust legislation) on media consolidation (the landmark moment there being IMHO when the prohibitions were removed that prevented a newspaper from owning a TV station and vice versa) and have been so successful in their endeavours that - - as Chris Hedges pointed out in one of his interviews - - there are about six corporations now that control almost everything that reaches the eyes and ears of the average American citizen.  IMHO, the corporations that own the media )and more importantly, their own corporate owners) may or may not actually set the  national agenda, but they sure as hell vet the access of those who want to.  The result is a stranglehold on national debate, wherein some subjects are taboo, some candidates or commentators are persona non grata and in general the national agenda is set within a certain very narrow set of permitted parameters.  Since the same corporate interests that control the media now also have the leglislature (both houses) firmly in their pockets, nothing is going to change within the system as it now is.

I think the demonstrators are very far from cynical.  By their very presence on the streets, they are indicating that they believe the system CAN change for the better, even though they don't know yet HOW it can change.  This is what's under debate in the hundreds of general assemblies across the nation as we speak.  Interesting that they expect no meaningful debate to be possible in Congress, which I think it's fair to say they have given up on, so they are going out and organizing the debate themselves.  That somehow struck me as very American.  Not George Bush American or Obama American but real American, something I haven't seen in a long, long time.

Personally, I think the movement, unfortunately, will fail.  It will fail in any one of the ways that I have gone through in my prior posts.  But that's because I'm a cynic.  I'm a bitter, cynical old man.  I've seen it all.  It all doesn't have to end the way I think it will end.  (But of course it will.)  The people in the streets are great people - - truly America's best.  But America has a habit of crushing out its best, beating them down to make room for its worst, and whatever past successes reformist movements have had, I think the walls have narrowed so much on them in the past thirty or forty years that it's now practically impossible for them to make any headway.  This movement, for all its promise, will peter out in the end.

Stray Pooch

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Re: Here's a bad omen for the Dem Party
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2011, 06:42:06 AM »
The problem with congress right now is its inability to find meaningful compromise, not its lack of extremes. In fact it is the extremes that have rendered it a failure.
BSB

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Stray Pooch

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Re: Here's a bad omen for the Dem Party
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2011, 06:56:53 AM »
. . . whatever past successes reformist movements have had, I think the walls have narrowed so much on them in the past thirty or forty years that it's now practically impossible for them to make any headway.  This movement, for all its promise, will peter out in the end.

And more truth.  Our founders wisely made it difficult to radically change things in this country.  The problem is, through the law of unintended consequences, that stability has evolved into immobility.  The biggest obstacle to real change in this country is exactly what the partisans on both sides say it is:  The parasites on the bottom of the economic ladder and the predators on the top.  The rest of us are caught in the middle trying to avoid getting infected by the former or eaten by the latter.
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

BSB

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Re: Here's a bad omen for the Dem Party
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2011, 08:31:21 AM »
"The Occupy! people seem to be disillusioned, not cynical."

I didn't say anything about "The Occupy! people". I wasn't either referring to them or not referring to them. I was talking about this country in general. What you think, however, is irrelevant to me because A) You're a Snowblower B) You're a Snowblower and C) You're a Snowblower. 

Nothing personal you understand, strickly business.

BSB

Michael Tee

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Re: Here's a bad omen for the Dem Party
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2011, 09:03:24 AM »
You should read what I write anyway cuz (a) I'm smarter than you, (b) I'm much smarter than you and (c) I'm way smarter than you.

Nothing personal about that, either.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Here's a bad omen for the Dem Party
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2011, 10:18:48 AM »
The parasites on the bottom of the economic ladder and the predators on the top.  The rest of us are caught in the middle trying to avoid getting infected by the former or eaten by the latter.
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True, except that the threat from the alleged "parasites" is minor. How do they infect anyone?

It is easy for the mega rich to devise clever ways with the Cato Institute and the Heritage Foundation, among others to infect the lumpenproletariat with their propaganda.

Move On and a few unions are far less effective, because they lack the money and the press is largely bought off.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Here's a bad omen for the Dem Party
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2011, 11:40:19 AM »
The parasites on the bottom of the economic ladder and the predators on the top.  The rest of us are caught in the middle trying to avoid getting infected by the former or eaten by the latter.=====================================================
True, except that the threat from the alleged "parasites" is minor. How do they infect anyone?

Anyone who has a grasp of biology know that parasites can render the body, not just diseased, but dead.  Some of the smallest organisms known to man, can kill.   


Move On and a few unions are far less effective, because they lack the money and the press is largely bought off.

A) there's no lack of $$$$ with unions.  They are a very powerful force, with the $$$$'s they can take in dues from their members, and use towards all forms of political endeavors.  Jerry Brown owes his soul to the Unions, here in CA, as they largely bankrolled his campaign  Whether its in advertising, donations, of "wink wink*, quid pro quo arrangements, your effort to reduce their power is poorly crafted. 
B) The press loves Obama...the press saturates the airwaves with favorable coverage of the OWS group and Dems in particular.  Not sure who you think is "buying them off", unless its some hidden DNC or Union effort
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Here's a bad omen for the Dem Party
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2011, 12:01:23 PM »
<<Anyone who has a grasp of biology know that parasites can render the body, not just diseased, but dead.  Some of the smallest organisms known to man, can kill.   >>

Well, if anyone wanted to know the dangers of taking a metaphor too far in a political argument, there you have the classic example.

XO, I think for some audiences, it's best to avoid any kind of figurative speech and deal strictly in concrete realities, short sentences and short words.  AND don't go near any of those Occupy! rallies without your Hazmat suit.

sirs

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Re: Here's a bad omen for the Dem Party
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2011, 12:17:45 PM »
<<Anyone who has a grasp of biology know that parasites can render the body, not just diseased, but dead.  Some of the smallest organisms known to man, can kill.   >>

Well, if anyone wanted to know the dangers of taking a metaphor too far in a political argument, there you have the classic example.

NOT, when the question is the analogy of parasites that Xo was referencing, in which case the reference is accurate to the discussion regarding politics.  Pooch's point of parasites that are at the bottom of society, that feed off, multiply, and devour everything above them, with no thought of the consequences of their actions.  They just do

Nice try though

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Here's a bad omen for the Dem Party
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2011, 12:33:16 PM »
sirs, there's a fine line between stupidity and insanity.  Try to stay on the side of stupidity. 

The "parasites" at the bottom of the societal ladder are NOT going to eat you or infect you.  The very worst they can do to you is to degenerate into such a hopeless state of dependency that you might have to shell out a few more bucks in tax dollars for extra welfare benefits and police services. 

The few meagre bucks that they can extract from the taxpayers pales into insignificance when compared to the looting of the Treasury and the economy by Wall Street and corporate America.

sirs

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Re: Here's a bad omen for the Dem Party
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2011, 01:05:19 PM »
See, here's your problem, with that latest spinning of your hamster cage wheel

- The adopting of the Xo school of responding with insults is very unbecoming of someone who thinks themself superior.  So best put that back in your dresser
- My notion of parasites (and likely pooch's, though i'll let him clarify his position himself) and yours is decidely different, so don't try applying your definition, to mine, and respond as such
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle