GOP Imploding As More and More Details Emerge

[R.R.]

You've made a compelling case for why CREW sat on the emails and x-rated IM's until the election. NOT.

I don't believe CREW reported these emails to the FBI over the summer, simply because they didn't post them to their website at the time. I believe they are in CYA mode now because they were caught sitting on explosive documents and releasing them right before the election. They were playing politics, not trying to safeguard children.

If they thought these emails were suspicious (note: the St. Pete Times dismissed them as friendly chit chat at the time) they would have posted them to their website and blew the whistle on Foley. But they didn't and were derelict in their duty. They wanted to play politics with them instead. And as you know, as a public figure, Foley would have had very narrow grounds in which to sue the website, and he vouched for the emails' authenticity anyway.

As a side note, I'm very happy that Foley is gone. It now gives the chance for a conservative to take over the seat in the marginally safe Republican district.

[Michael Tee]

<< I just think liberals want to feel better about themselves by calling Allen a racist without any proof and without knowing what's in his heart. >>

Without any proof?  We all saw the video of him calling the dark-skinned young man "Macaca" and "welcoming" him to America.  You gotta be kidding.  We have FIVE former team-mates or persons who knew him back in the 70s come forward to say he called black people "niggers."  We have the evidence that he kept a Confederate flag on his vehicle and a NOOSE in his office.  We have a member of his hunting party testify how he stuffed a severed deer's head into a black family's mailbox and we have independent corroboration of that story from a man who was told the same story (except that it wasn't mentioned to him that the mailbox was in the black part of town) by the third member of the hunting party, now deceased.

Without any proof?  I beg to differ.  We have, if anything, a surfeit of proof.

 <<Since when is it funny or appropriate to use a Jewish surname in a pathetic attempt to slur somebody? >>

Well, IMHO, it's both funny AND appropriate when the schmuck in question goes to elaborate lengths to deny his Jewish origins, including putting forth the lie that his mother was raised as a Christian, and reacts to the imputation of Jewish blood in his veins as if it were a deadly insult.

[Michael Tee]

<<You've made a compelling case for why CREW sat on the emails and x-rated IM's until the election. NOT.>>

I made a very compelling and easily understandable case for not posting prior to the completion of the FBI investigation.  CREW had no way of knowing if the e-mails or IMs were fake or not, let alone whether Foley would vouch for them or not. 

I'm not an expert in the law of libel and slander, but I'd be very surprised if there were an absolute bar on any public figure being allowed to sue - - most likely, they could sue for damages if publication were malicious, i.e. false and either known to be false at the time of publication or rushed into publication without reasonable measures being taken to determine their truth or falsity.  Even if I'm wrong on Foley's ability to sue, they could easily have refrained from publication on moral grounds - - doing irreparable damage to an innocent man; or on practical grounds - - ruining their own credibility by rushing to denounce an ultimately innocent man.

IMHO, CREW is not qualified to conduct an analysis of the e-mails or IMs to determine their authenticity, and so, pending the results of the FBI investigation, it would have been extremely irresponsible for CREW to publish them as the real thing.

[R.R.]

We all saw the video of him calling the dark-skinned young man "Macaca" and "welcoming" him to America.

He was welcoming Webb to real America (Virginia) because he was out in Hollywood that day raising money.

Allen has said that macacca was simply something he made up.

We have FIVE former team-mates or persons who knew him back in the 70s come forward to say he called black people "niggers."

One former teammate and two anonymous ones have charged that, and they were soundly discredited by scores of other people who knew Allen at the time. The one guy making the false accusation is a committed Democrat who runs an anti-tobacco PAC.

We have the evidence that he kept a Confederate flag on his vehicle and a NOOSE in his office.

The confederate flag does not equal racism. And that was not a noose, it was a lasso.

We have a member of his hunting party testify how he stuffed a severed deer's head into a black family's mailbox and we have independent corroboration of that story from a man who was told the same story (except that it wasn't mentioned to him that the mailbox was in the black part of town) by the third member of the hunting party, now deceased.

Except it wasn’t hunting season in that county at the time, there were no reports about it in the newspaper at the time, and there were no police reports about it at the time. In other words, there’s no evidence it ever took place.

Without any proof? I beg to differ. We have, if anything, a surfeit of proof.

You have no proof. All you have are unsubstantiated allegations without merit. It’s funny that the guy has run for the state assembly, congress, governor, and senator without these allegations ever being made before now. The liberals are trying to smear a guy to make themselves feel better about their own racism. Robert Byrd, a former KKK member, was the senate majority leader for the Democrats for many years.

Well, IMHO, it's both funny AND appropriate when the schmuck in question goes to elaborate lengths to deny his Jewish origins, including putting forth the lie that his mother was raised as a Christian, and reacts to the imputation of Jewish blood in his veins as if it were a deadly insult.

Why is it so important to liberals to prove that Allen is partially Jewish? Why do they care so much? Isn’t this a form of McCarthyism to ask if somebody has ever been Jewish? This seems to be anti-Semitic. I noticed the libs are also attacking Joe Lieberman because he’s Jewish. It’s nasty.

[R.R.]

I made a very compelling and easily understandable case for not posting prior to the completion of the FBI investigation.

There was no FBI investigation.

The FBI has just started their preliminary investigation now.

Your "case" was not compelling nor particularly understandable. It was bogus on all counts.

If CREW was serious about exposing Foley for "friendly chit chat," as the St. Pete Times has called the 5 emails, they should have posted them on their site when they got them. Not wait until the election to use them in an obvious partisan way. CREW is guilty of partisan politics, not protecting the welfare of children.

[Michael Tee]

<<Allen has said that macacca was simply something he made up. >>

Bullshit.

<<He was welcoming Webb to real America (Virginia) because he was out in Hollywood that day raising money.>>

That's absolutely ludicrous.  How would he know simply from looking at a man he's never met before whether or not he's at home in "the real America" or not?

<<One former teammate and two anonymous ones have charged that . . . >>

I said FIVE former team-mates OR PERSONS WHO KNEW HIM.  One of the persons who knew him being a friend of his wife's who came up to their home and heard him say, speaking of the turtles in a nearby pond, "Only the niggers round here eat them."  There's a fifth person as well (as of last count) who also corroborated his racist talk.

<<soundly discredited by scores of other people who knew Allen >>

Soundly discredited, my ass.  All they can say is that Allen never said anything racist in their presence.  As you yourself would say, (and did) how could they know what was in his heart?

<<The one guy making the false accusation is a committed Democrat who runs an anti-tobacco PAC.>>

Oh.  So what discredits him - - that he's a committed Democrat or that he runs an anti-tobacco PAC?

<<The confederate flag does not equal racism.>>

Bullshit.

<<And that was not a noose, it was a lasso. >>

Sez who?

<<Except it wasn’t hunting season in that county at the time>>

Right.  Like a drunk who stuffs deer heads into people's mailboxes is gonna give a shit when the season starts.  Especially if he's as well-connected and as wealthy as Allen was.

<< there were no reports about it in the newspaper at the time, and there were no police reports about it at the time. >>

Right.  Like that's the first thing a black guy living in terror in some racist Southern hell-hole of a town is gonna do when someone stuffs a deer's head in his mailbox - - go to the police (they coulda been the guys who put it there) or the newspaper (as if the newspaper gives a shit)  You oughtta try living in the real world some time.  It sounds from the "reasoning" in your arguments that you have very little acquaintance with it.

<<In other words, there’s no evidence it ever took place>>

Yeah.  Because some poor terrorized black guy didn't go to the papers or the police when he found a severed head in his mailbox, there's no evidence it ever took place.  The word of one of Allen's hunting partners who was there when it happened is not evidence.  The corroboration of someone who says he heard virtually the same story from the third member of the hunting party is not evidence.  Man, WHAT are you smoking?

<< It’s funny that the guy has run for the state assembly, congress, governor, and senator without these allegations ever being made before now. >>

As one of your fellow conservatives pointed out, they're ALL racists in Virginia; his rival, Webb, is also called a racist.  The charges surfaced, for the VERY obvious reason, that Allen was either drunk enough or stupid enough, to call that dark-skinned young man "macaca" on videotape.  His absurd denials of racism ("It's just a made up word, honest!!!) fooled nobody, and the more he denied, the angrier people became.  Nobody likes it when politicians lie openly to their face, and some folks watching this bullshit, who had kept their mouths shut for a long time, finally decided they had had enough.

<<Why is it so important to liberals to prove that Allen is partially Jewish? >>

It isn't.

<<Why do they care so much?>>

They don't.  You are missing the point.

<< Isn’t this a form of McCarthyism to ask if somebody has ever been Jewish?>>

No, I think people have a healthy interest or curiosity in who other people are, what is their background.  What were his parents like, what did they do, where did they come from?  Everybody has a background, Scots-Irish, Polish, Jewish, whatever, and they're always interested in who the other guy is, if they have some cultural bond or not.  Somebody found out that Allen's mum was Jewish.  This isn't in itself of great interest, but people would like to know.  Is he Jewish or not?  You can pretend it's of no interest whatever, but most people will find it mildly interesting.

The big deal wasn't that Allen was or wasn't Jewish.  The big deal was his reaction to the question.  THAT'S what you don't seem to understand.

<< This seems to be anti-Semitic. >>

It's just human nature to want to know who somebody is, and part of that is his or her ethnic background.  It's the most natural thing in the world,  Again I have to remark on the total unworldliness and unreality of your take on life.  I went to a Toronto  public school that was about evenly divided between Jews and WASPS, with a few Italians and Ukrainians thrown into the mix.  Whenever a new kid showed up at school, he was ALWAYS asked, "Hey what are you kid, Jewish or English?"  Everyone wanted to know.  It was about as common as "Where ya from?"

<<I noticed the libs are also attacking Joe Lieberman because he’s Jewish.>>

You got that wrong too.  Lieberman's attacked, first on the merits of his positions, and second because he's a disgrace to the Jews.  He's like a Jewish Clarence Thomas.  If there could be a Jewish Uncle Tom, that would be Lieberman.

[Michael Tee]

<<There was no FBI investigation.

<<The FBI has just started their preliminary investigation now.>>

When they brought the material to the FBI, they must have felt the FBI was going to investigate.  After all, the FBI did not hand the stuff back to them and tell them there was nothing to it.

Until they had a final word from the FBI, they were not going to put this stuff on their website.  This must be the third or fourth time that I am explaining this to you, and it is not getting through.  Why?  It really is not all that complicated.  They were not competent to evaluate the material.  The FBI was.  It was not up to them to publish material that could be highly detrimental to Foley and could get their asses sued off, or ruin their credibility, if it had not been authenticated and evaluated by experts.

<<Your "case" was not compelling nor particularly understandable. >>

I'm sorry, but it you can't understand something as simple and as straightforward as an organization's reluctance to publish material it could not properly evaluate but which would be potentially devastating to a particular individual, then I have to question whether you can understand anything that I or anyone else might be able to post on the subject.  I suggest that any intelligent high-school student could understand the case that I presented, and if you can't, then the problem is not with the case.

<<It was bogus on all counts.>>

Bullshit.  It is your rejection of it that is bogus on all counts.

[R.R.]

You’ve offered no evidence that Allen is a racist. However, I’ve offered firm proof that Robert Byrd is. And as recently as several years ago, Byrd used the “N” word on national tv.

And Allen’s opponent, James Webb, was driving around Watts with a toy gun scaring African-Americans by pointing it at them. Is that racist?

As the Washington Post reported: Cragg, 67, who lives in Fairfax County, said on Wednesday that Webb described taking drives through the black neighborhood of Watts, where he and members of his ROTC unit used racial epithets and pointed fake guns at blacks to scare them.

"They would hop into their cars, and would go down to Watts with these buddies of his," Cragg said Webb told him. "They would take the rifles down there. They would call then [epithets], point the rifles at them, pull the triggers and then drive off laughing. One night, some guys caught them and beat . . . them. And that was the end of that."

And you guys are accusing Allen of racism? Look in the mirror.

These smears against Allen by liberals are politically motivated and they are the politics of personal destruction. It reminds me of ads that the NAACP took out on Bush when he was running for president accusing him of the dragging death of James Byrd. These attacks by liberals are not substantive and they are designed to destroy people’s careers without any type of proof. Stick to the issues in the campaign, and don’t resort to these smears that you cannot prove.

[R.R.]

There was no FBI investigation preventing them from posting the material onto their website. There is no evidence that they even reported the over friendly emails to the FBI. They didn’t post the emails last summer, because they wanted to hold them to drop them on the public before the election, which they have done. There certainly was no FBI investigation completed when they did post them to their website a couple days ago. Your “case” is ridiculous and it seems like it was written by somebody in high school. CREW was more interested in partisan politics than trying to safeguard children. 

[Michael Tee]

<<You’ve offered no evidence that Allen is a racist.>>

That's a total crock.  I've offered a TON of evidence.  "Macaca" on video.  "Welcome to America" on video.  The N-word, by (at last count) FIVE independent witnesses.  The deer's head story (TWO independent witnesses)  The Confederate Flag.  The noose.

<< However, I’ve offered firm proof that Robert Byrd is. And as recently as several years ago, Byrd used the “N” word on national tv. >>

LMFAO.  As recently as LAST MONTH, Allen used the M-word on live TV.

<<As the Washington Post reported: Cragg, 67, who lives in Fairfax County, said on Wednesday that Webb described taking drives through the black neighborhood of Watts, where he and members of his ROTC unit used racial epithets and pointed fake guns at blacks to scare them.>>

Well, what did you expect?  It's VIRGINIA, part of the Old South.  You really expect to find white candidates, white ANYTHING, who are NOT racists?  Wake up, mister.

<<Stick to the issues in the campaign, and don’t resort to these smears that you cannot prove.>>

We got the guy on camera calling a dark-skinned man "macaca" and welcoming him to "the real America."  NOT twenty years ago, not 20 months ago, LAST MONTH.  "Can't prove," my ass.

[R.R.]

That's a total crock.  I've offered a TON of evidence.  "Macaca" on video.  "Welcome to America" on video.  The N-word, by (at last count) FIVE independent witnesses.  The deer's head story (TWO independent witnesses)  The Confederate Flag.  The noose.

All of this has been discredited.

What hasn't been discredited is the fact that Robert Byrd was in the KKK and he used the "N" word recently.

James Webb used racial epithets and pointed toy guns at African Americans. This may not only be racist, but it could also be a crime.

[Michael Tee]

<<All of this has been discredited. >>

That's rich.  Discredited how?
The "Macaca" tape was faked with illegal Mexican actors playing Allen?

Discredited because Allen claims he just made up the word for no reason although the word he made up for no reason to direct at a dark-skinned man for no reason just happened to be - - by PURE COINCIDENCE mind you - - a racial insult in his mother's language for dark skinned men just like the one he "made up" the word for?

The FIVE INDEPENDENT witnesses who heard Allen use the N-word are discredited because you say they're discredited? 

The TWO INDEPENDENT witnesses to the deer's head story are discredited because you say they're discredited?  Or are they discredited because one is a Democrat and/or has an anti-tobacco PAC?

The noose-in-the-law-office is now discredited because Allen now claims it was only a lassoo?  I think most people know the difference between a hangman 's noose and a lassoo.  A hangman's noose has thirteen loops around the ends of the rope.  I don't think there are too many cowboys who rope their cattle with a hangman's noose, and I don't think there are too many people who would mistake the one for the other.

The Confederate flag on his vehicle is discredited because you claim it's not a racist symbol?

I'm LMFAO.  The only one "discredited" by all this incredible bullshit is YOU. 

[R.R.]

That's rich.  Discredited how?

Read post #48. There's no use going over it all again when the post is right there. The false accusations against Allen have been discredited.

Again, the fact that Robert Byrd is a racist, who belonged to the KKK and said the "N" word recently is beyond dispute. This guy is a leader of the Democrat party.

The fact that James Webb used a toy gun to harass African-Americans hasn't been disputed.

Care to try?

[Michael Tee]

Discredited - - from the people who brought you Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

What is this?  The Republicans "discredit" any witness who tells a story they don't want to hear.

John Kerry's combat medals are "discredited" - - he didn't earn ONE.  Boy, the Army must be pretty stupid to give away medals to folks who don't deserve them.  Ever wonder how many other medals are undeserved?  What about McCain's?  What about Ollie North's?  With a bunch of incompetent schmucks handing out the tinsel, how do we know which if any of them are truly deserved?

Now it's the witnesses against Senator Macacawitz' racism and bigotry who are next to be "discredites" - - this has to be a fucking joke, doesn't it?  Stand up, tell a truth the Republicans don't want to hear - - and prepare to be "discredited."

Who can take this bullshit any longer?  Does ANYBODY sincerely believe a Republican claim that a witness has been "discredited?"  Is there any meaning to the term at all when anything and everything that comes out against the Republicans turns out (sometimes as soon as it comes out) to be "discredited?"

[Lanya]

E-mails Show Foley Sought to Rendezvous with Page

October 02, 2006 12:14 PM

Brian Ross and Maddy Sauer Report:

Apr_mark_foley_061002_nrIn addition to explicit sexual language, former Congressman Mark Foley's Internet messages also include repeated efforts to get the underage recipient to rendezvous with him at night.

"I would drive a few miles for a hot stud like you," Foley said in one message obtained by ABC News.

The FBI says it has opened a "preliminary investigation" of Foley's e-mails. Federal law enforcement officials say attempts by Foley to meet in person could constitute the necessary evidence for a federal charge of "soliciting for sex" with a minor on the Internet.
THE BLOTTER RECOMMENDS

    * FBI Opens "Preliminary Investigation" of Foley
    * Video Foley's Behavior No Secret in Washington
    * Check Out Video Reports by Brian Ross on Our Home Page

In another message, Foley, using the screen name Maf54, appears to describe having been together with the teen in San Diego.

Maf54: I miss you lots since san diego.
Teen:   ya I cant wait til dc
Maf54:
Teen:   did you pick a night for dinner
Maf54: not yet…but likely Friday
Teen:   ok…ill plan for Friday then
Maf54: that will be fun

The messages also show the teen is, at times, uncomfortable with Foley's aggressive approach.

Maf54: I want to see you
Teen:   Like I said not til feb…then we will go to dinner
Maf54: and then what happens
Teen:  we eat…we drink…who knows…hang out…late into the night
Maf54: and
Teen:  I dunno
Maf54: dunno what
Teen:  hmmm I have the feeling that you are fishing here…im not sure what I would be comfortable with…well see

Foley resigned Friday after ABC News questioned him about the Internet messages.

He says he has checked into a rehabilitation facility to deal with alcohol and behavioral issues.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/10/emails_show_fol.html