Author Topic: Another drone???  (Read 4585 times)

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Plane

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Re: Another drone???
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2011, 07:08:24 PM »
  I think on this occasion I shall believe the Iranians.

  Their story is plausable .

   Not only that , I can't fault them for it.

    If I knew of Iranian spy drones over the USA, and I thought up a meaconn to snag one I certainly would.

    This incident is one for them, our side should salute them and say "well played".

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Another drone???
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2011, 09:23:56 PM »
It appears that the US intelligence is convinced that the drone is really what the Iranians say it is. And I certainly do not blame them for bringing it down, if that is what they did, and keeping it, since that is surely what we would do if we knocked down and Iranian drone.

So I agree with you, plane.

You can't win them all. Stuxnet almost certainly cost Iran more than this drone has cost us.
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Plane

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Re: Another drone???
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2011, 05:55:59 AM »
http://www.gpsworld.com/Defense/news/did-spoofing-down-drone-12430


Related topics: Defense,Aviation & Space, GNSS System, Latest News, Precision Guidance, Security & Surveillance, Warfighter

Defense Did Spoofing Down Drone?
December 16, 2011
 
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Press reports speculate that GPS spoofing was used to get the RQ-170 Sentinel Drone to land in Iran. According to an Iranian engineer quoted in a Christian Science Monitor story, "By putting noise [jamming] on the communications, you force the bird into autopilot. This is where the bird loses its brain." At that point, the drone relies on GPS signals to get home. By spoofing GPS, Iranian engineers were able to get the drone to "land on its own where we wanted it to, without having to crack the remote-control signals and communications."

"The GPS navigation is the weakest point," the Iranian engineer told the Monitor, giving a detailed description of Iran's electronic ambush of the highly classified pilotless aircraft.

The Christian Science Monitor story says military experts and "a number of published papers on GPS spoofing" indicate that the scenario described by the Iranian engineer is plausible: "Even modern combat-grade GPS [is] very susceptible” to manipulation, the story quotes former U.S. Navy electronic warfare specialist Robert Densmore as saying. He added that it is “certainly possible” to recalibrate the GPS on a drone so that it flies on a different course. “I wouldn't say it's easy, but the technology is there.”

"We have a project on hand that is one step ahead of jamming, meaning deception of the aggressive systems,” the Iranian engineer reportedly said, such that “we can define our own desired information for it so the path of the missile would change to our desired destination.”

The story further quotes from a 2003 Los Alamos research paper, "GPS Spoofing Countermeasures," by Jon S. Warner and Roger G. Johnston:

“A more pernicious attack involves feeding the GPS receiver fake GPS signals so that it believes it is located somewhere in space and time that it is not. In a sophisticated spoofing attack, the adversary would send a false signal reporting the moving target’s true position and then gradually walk the target to a false position.”

In September 2011, the U.S. Air Force awarded two $47 million contracts to BAE Systems and Northrop Grumman for development of a navigation warfare (NAVWAR) sensor to military GPS receivers on aircraft and missiles, and designed to maintain freedom of action under extreme GPS countermeasures.

Designed to replace traditional GPS elements in airborne GPS/INS systems the NAVWAR Sensor will reportedly be compatible with existing embedded GPS receivers, and offer 10 meter CEP location accuracy even under heavy jamming. In addition to providing consistent position, navigation and timing data, it will help protect secure Blue Force tracking networks and datalinks, both considered critical infrastructures susceptible to enemy electronic attacks.

Designed to operate in hostile electronic environment, the future receiver will also offer situational awareness acting as a signals intelligence sensor, enabling GPS jammer detection, characterization, geolocation, and reporting of GPS jammers. Networked NAVWAR sensors will also be able to exchange hostile jammer locations with other networked NAVWAR receivers, thus optimizing collective countermeasures against the threat. The system will integrate the multi-mode Y-Code, M-Code and C/A-code (YMCA) receiver to offer more advanced capabilities, compared with current military code anti-jam GPS receivers. It will possibly include advanced technologies such as inertial sensing, chip scale atomic clocks, anti-jam antenna electronics, direction finding and geolocation algorithms to achieve the high level of survivability the Air Force expects.

No mention is immediately evident of anti-spoofing capabilities in the new device under development.


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Another drone???
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2011, 01:39:44 PM »
It seems to me that the drone the Iranians have did self-destruct, and the Iranians pieced it back together. The classified guts probably do not require a major spectacular Chuck-Norris blowup to be rendered toast. There is a reason why the Iranians hid the undercarriage of this thing with a cloth. I suspect it is because they did not have enough pieces to  reconstruct it convincingly.
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Plane

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Re: Another drone???
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2011, 07:02:51 PM »
  It would be nice for you to be right about this XO , but this time I believe the Iranians are telling the truth.




      I said this?

      I wonder if I am alright.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Another drone???
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2011, 08:19:46 PM »
They seem to be telling the truth about having a US drone. Whether they have anything they can reverse engineer or even whether they actually managed to bring it down we probably won't know for a long time.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

kimba1

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Re: Another drone???
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2011, 11:14:40 PM »
I'm pretty damn sure if that ever get studied it'll be the russians or the chinese. It worth more as trade than tech to the iranians.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Another drone???
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2011, 10:34:35 AM »
If it were studied by the Russians or Chinese, I imagine that the Iranians would get all the secrets they could as well. Iranians are not technologically backward: they have enough of technicians, engineers and experts to study this.

If they did have a device to destroy the operating system of the drone, I do not believe that it would have to be one that would explode the entire drone in a spectacular blast of fire and smoke. It does not take any major conflagration to ruin a motherboard or destroy a program on a chip. If a drone crashed and blew up accidentally, it would be seen as a bomb, and that might be a major disadvantage.  The real world of espionage does not have any obligation to imitate Mission: Impossible.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Another drone???
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2011, 12:26:33 PM »
      Here is another thing.

      This is the latest generation of stealth.

     To give it false guidence they would have to know it was there.

     If stealth is defeated we have spent a fantastic amount of money for nothing.

    Our fighter and bomber fleet is about half as effective as we think, our drones half way to being useless.

     I didn't see mention of what method was used to know when the drone was present. I hope that it was just a spy on the ground near where it was launched.

Amianthus

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Re: Another drone???
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2011, 01:45:53 PM »
      This is the latest generation of stealth.

     To give it false guidence they would have to know it was there.

Stealth doesn't make it invisible to radar, it just reduces the signature to make it less likely to see it. There are other ways to ascertain it's position, once you have a suspicion it's there. And once you've guessed it's approximate location, you can use radar to pinpoint it.

It shows up as a very small radar signature, which can be, if you're only casually scanning the area, easy to lose in the background "noise". If you suspect something is in a small area, you can concentrate your attention - and even increase the gain of the signal - to make a small, normally inconsequential, radar return easier to spot.

I'll bet they used the control signals for the drone to make a guess at it's location.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

sirs

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Re: Another drone???
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2011, 02:06:29 PM »
Excellent information Ami.  Thanks
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BSB

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Re: Another drone???
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2011, 02:41:51 PM »
It's a back and forth game. You up the anti in a specific technology field in some manner and as soon as you use it you run the risk of them catching on and upping the anti to counter it. Fortuneately a drone is not a human asset. A far greater tragedy was the loss of 20 some odd human assets, aka Navy SEALS, many from Team 6. That's a bit of technology that will be far more difficult to replace.

BSB

sirs

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Re: Another drone???
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2011, 02:50:36 PM »
Agreed
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Another drone???
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2011, 06:42:44 PM »
    It has been American Military philosophy to spend lavishly on tecnology and resorces that spare us casualtys.

     The drones are a pure embodyment of this principal, if we loose a drone we can congradulate the enemy on a game well played, but if the drones become useless we will have to fall back to risking pilots .

Plane

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Re: Another drone???
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2011, 07:15:19 PM »
      This is the latest generation of stealth.

     To give it false guidence they would have to know it was there.

Stealth doesn't make it invisible to radar, it just reduces the signature to make it less likely to see it.


   Well yes , we lost a stealth aircraft in Bosnia.Apparently they used logic to make a good guess about where and when the aircraft would be overhead, we could have varied the missions track and time more to foil this, then by having the radar transmitter seaperated from the recever they overcame the stealth caricteristic long enough to guide AA and shoot it down.

  Stealth doesn't need to be perfect , but it helps a lot if the potential observer doesn't know right when and where to look. I bet that it has become very hard to launch a drone from Packistan without having the fact on the phone to Iran immediately.

    If the stealth of this drone can be copyed we will have to be on the lookout for the stealthy too.