...and under his Foreign Policy watch

[sirs]

Remember back in the beginning of 2011 when Obama told us about the freedom lovers in Egypt and Libya living under the oppression of dictators and needing our immediate help to establish democracy in their fair lands?

You do? So do I. How weird. We should become best friends. Facebook me.

Anyway … it turns out that the “freedom lovers” Obama coerced lots of Americans to rally behind (and whom he also pimped out with billions of sawbucks from America’s pitiful piggy bank) were bat crap crazy.

I’m talking crazy on steroids crazy—and not just peaceful crazy like Joe Biden but rather hide-sharp-objects-from-them, menopausal wolverine sow crazy.

Yep, these “yearners for democracy” turned out to be radicals of radicals who’d like nothing more than to eradicate the U.S. and Israel and establish a global bounce house for all things Muslim.

Whoopsie, eh Mr. President? You kind of misjudged that one, señor.

At least I hope Obama misjudged their end game because if he had even an inkling that they would quickly blossom into full-blown anti-America/Israel hate machines then that would make some folks think that our president … um … uh … doesn’t have our … how shall I say … our best interests or our allies’ best interests at heart.

I’ve gotta admit that at the beginning of the Arab Spring I thought these freedom lovers seemed a bubble off level. I mean … I didn’t want to judge, but I wasn’t getting that Jeffersonian vibe from the video feeds coming across the wire; it was stuff like burning the American flag, raping one of our female correspondents, looting their pyramids and decapitating multitudinous mummies that caused me some consternation.

But that’s just me, and who am I? I could be wrong. Or a racist. Or both. Maybe the Arab Spring—like Obama’s economic policies—just needs a little more time to pan out. That’s probably it.

However, the events of this past week in Cairo and Benghazi on September 11th kind of make me feel like this “Spring” is stuck on stupid, and now, thanks to Obama’s backing, we have one violent, jacked-up mess on our hands—one that won’t be remedied easily … and one to which we can point to the president as someone who built that.   

[sirs]

Yes.......Bin Laden was killed........by Seal Team Six

[Xavier_Onassis]

The false assumption here is that everyone that wanted Mubarak and Qaddaffi gone agreed on a single form of government. The fact is that Mubarak oppressed everyone who wanted him out. Those who have become violent represent a small minority of Egyptians and Libyans. Both Libya and Egypt are very diverse countries when it comes to ideology.

To say that we should have kept Mubarak in power is absurd. He was over 80 and clearly doomed. The same was true of Qadaffi.

If this logic were true, we could suppress US elections because it might upset the Klan, the Skinheads or Fred Phelps.

[sirs]

The false assumption here is that everyone that wanted Mubarak and Qaddaffi gone agreed on a single form of government.

Who is "everyone", and your (likely erroneous) claim is based on ...... WHAT?

[Xavier_Onassis]

You are not bright enough to discuss this.

[sirs]

So, once again, can't back up a damn thing you claim.  Why are we not surprised?

[Plane]

The false assumption here is that everyone that wanted Mubarak and Qaddaffi gone agreed on a single form of government. The fact is that Mubarak oppressed everyone who wanted him out. Those who have become violent represent a small minority of Egyptians and Libyans. Both Libya and Egypt are very diverse countries when it comes to ideology.

To say that we should have kept Mubarak in power is absurd. He was over 80 and clearly doomed. The same was true of Qadaffi.

If this logic were true, we could suppress US elections because it might upset the Klan, the Skinheads or Fred Phelps.

I think that this is well said.

People who hated Quaddiffi could include reasonable thoughtfull people and hatefull people also.

I recently read this little motto, " My enemys enemy , is the enemy of my enemy , no more or less".

I thought this quite thought provoking.

The whole cold war was run on the principal that the enemys of our enemys were necessacerily our friends, and this was true as long as the threat was severe.

Then the cold war was over , and those we accepted as "our devil" remain devilish, but now useless as "friends".

How likely are we to make this sort of policy again , and will we be as graceless ?

I think we are going to reinvent realpolitik and fuss with Europe again untill the Islamic world decides what it is going to do.

Then we might have to reinvent NATO.

[sirs]

Perhaps you can do a better job of supporting Xo's claim, Plane, since he seems unwilling/unable to debate, in this, a debate forum

Who is "everyone", that he's referring to and the basis to his likely erroneous claim(s) would be based on ...... what exactly?

[Plane]

I liked what XO said here , but let me say that my interpretation is mine , I can't make XO responsible for my potential misunderstanding.

The people who wanted the dictator overthrown would be the "everyone" and it would certainly include me if I were stuck there.
"Everyone" could include well read people who understand the principals of good government , it could also include criminals and it could include people who want no more or less than their favoriate flavor of dictator .

Revolution is a roll of dice , after the overthrow of the tyrant the people have to contend with who thay would like to trust to replace him.

We might help , but we can't take over the responsibility, we should have learned this in Cuba and the Phillipines.

[sirs]

The people who wanted the dictator overthrown would be the "everyone" and it would certainly include me if I were stuck there.

So, "everyone" is largely the Egyptian populace, correct?  Not this country, or any other country, or our Government, correct?

Revolution is a roll of dice , after the overthrow of the tyrant the people have to contend with who thay would like to trust to replace him.

I heard Obama, in his own words, claiming how he could "see it in their eyes", the Egyptian's "non-violent protests" and want of something better.  I'm confident most folks would want something better than to live in a dictatorship.  But as you said, as you roll the dice, what if it comes up snakes eyes, and we now have to deal with a heavy handed theocracy, that pledges rule by Jihad

Now what?  Obama promised that an Adminstration under him would bring far more harmony and sympathy towards the U.S.  Currently, its looking like quite the opposite. 

And for folks who think this was all 1 big spontaneous outburst, spearheded by 1 paltry video, that likely the vast majority of the arab world has never seen, is smoking something decidingly delusional

[Xavier_Onassis]

My point is that not everyone who wanted to get rid of Mubarak or Qaddafi wanted a democracy. Some wanted sharia, no doubt there were also communists and even some that believed in the principles of Qadaffi's quasi-fascist Green book, but without Qadaffi in charge.

Libya is largely divided between a large population on the coast and a much smaller inland population, between Benghazi and Tripoli, and among various tribal clans, both rural and urban.

Egypt is far more complicated. Islam and a language is most of what they have in common.

When Mubarak was overthrown, the army took over. Then the army saw that it could not rule without a lot of bloodshed, and turned much of the power over to the elected leaders. Unemployment was always high, but it is at least 15% higher because tourism is far less. This has caused a lot of discontent.

By "everyone", I meant most writers in the West, who naturally spoke a lot more with the urban intellectuals who favored democracy, because they did not speak Arabic, and had fewer friends among the more traditional people. That is why they coined the term "Arab Spring" : they thought it would be like the "Prague Spring" in which the Czech people expressed a desire to get rid of the Communists and become more democratic.

[sirs]

By "everyone", I meant most writers in the West, who naturally spoke a lot more with the urban intellectuals who favored democracy, because they did not speak Arabic, and had fewer friends among the more traditional people. That is why they coined the term "Arab Spring" : they thought it would be like the "Prague Spring" in which the Czech people expressed a desire to get rid of the Communists and become more democratic.

Now, was that so hard, when 1st asked??   sheeeesh

[Xavier_Onassis]

If you read what I wrote the first time, you might have been able to figure it out.

[sirs]

I did......which is what prompted the question, since it wasn't clear, in any way.  Even Plane didn't get it

[BSB/Hero/Genius/MovieStar]

XO "you (Sirs) might have been able to figure it out."

Give it up XO, Sirs isn't capable of figuring anything out.


BSB