Author Topic: Cutting Veteran's Benefits  (Read 1567 times)

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BSB

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Cutting Veteran's Benefits
« on: December 06, 2012, 09:06:49 AM »
There is a lot of hysterical phony patriotic nonsense that goes around when cutting  veterans benefits, to help decrease the deficit, is suggested. Neither veterans, or their benefits, are sacred.  A veteran's citizenship is no more, or less, sacred than the citizenship of any other American. Just because you stepped up to the plate once doesn't mean you're due a pass for the rest of your days.  Life doesn't work that way.

The COLA? Of course they should change how it's calculated. It should have been changed years ago. It's like increasing taxes on the very wealthy. Of course they should increase them. They should have increased years ago.

What I find funny is the number of non-veterans who run around saying they shouldn't lower veterans benefits just because it's what their party wants them to say. Equally funny is the number of non-wealthy who run around saying they shouldn't raise taxes on the very wealthy because that's what a conservative is supposed to say.

I highly doubt either of the two most vocal conservatives in this group make enough, even between them, to worry about tax increases. I suspect the biggest loser in this group from a tax hike on the wealthy would be me and I'm all for it. I also suspect I receive the most in here in terms of veterans benefits and I'm all for cutting them if it's necessary. 

Democracy doesn't come cheap. Nothing good does.


BSB


Democratic Bullshit:

>>Bernie Sanders Slams the GOP Plan to Reduce the Deficit by Cutting Veterans Benefits

By: Jason Easley
November 9th, 2012

In a conference call with reporters today, Sen. Bernie Sanders alerted the American people to the Republican (and some Democrat support) plan to reduce the deficit by cutting veterans benefits.

The change that would bring about the cuts would be a switch in the calculation of COLAs for federal benefit programs like Social Security from the current system to a chained Consumer Price Index (CPI). On the surface, the change seems small. Business Insider explained the Chained CPI, “The C-CPI assumes that consumers are making different choices right now. Because of the economic down-turn, they’re substituting cheaper products for the ones they used to buy (say, going for the cheaper apple versus a more expensive peach at the supermarket, or buying cat food instead of ground beef). It presumes that consumers are effectively changing the real CPI number. Using the C-CPI, rates would re-calibrate every two years according to a reading of consumer spending. And since Social Security is linked to the CPI, it has the potential to reduce social security payments…Since spending on government programs (like social security) will be calculated based on C-CPI (as they are now on CPI), their cost will go down, and people’s benefits will be cut.”

In short, Republicans are trying to push through a benefit cut to veterans, the disabled, and seniors by disguising it as a tweak to the system. Sen, Sanders told reporters, “We do not honor our disabled veterans by cutting their benefits. In my view in this country means anything it means we keep the promises we make to the people who put their lives on the line to defend us.”

Sanders pointed out that under the CPI, a disabled veteran who starts receiving benefits at age 30 would see those benefits reduced by $1,300 a year by the time they reach age 45. This isn’t a one time cut. The cuts would build on each other and get deeper as the recipient ages. To put it another way, people who already have their earning potential limited by age or disability would see their only or main source of income erode over time. The vast majority of these individuals won’t have the ability to make up their lost income through work, so they will sink deeper into poverty.<<

http://www.skweezer.com/s.aspx?q=http://www.politicususa.com/bernie-sanders-slams-gop-plan-reduce-deficit-cutting-veterans-benefits.html

Plane

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Re: Cutting Veteran's Benefits
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2012, 12:51:43 AM »
My pay has already been frozen, and may stay that way for a while yet.

I agree with you that some sacrifice may be necessacery and I am trying to bear up with reasonable loss.

That is hardly the point of a tax increase strictly for one class of Americans. If you were to tax the top 2% twice as much as the President proposes the deficit would still be increasing rapidly.

Right now the President can cause a tax increase all the way up to the tax rates paid while Clinton was president , I think he will , just by being a little too hard to deal with and keeping the goalpost out of reach , the automatic rate increase will kick in as the Bush tax cuts expire. Also an across the board spending cut will practicly impose an austerity program of all of the governments discrecionary spending . Why should he want anything elese?

Although jumping the fiscal cliff will indeed return us to the Clinton era tax rates , they will not return us to the Clinton era tax base , we have more retirees than we did then , and fewer well employed.

So I suppose I can be sanguine about it , if my pay remains frozen , I won't feel like the lone ranger, if my taxes go up , I can feel like I am  rich.

BSB

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Re: Cutting Veteran's Benefits
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2012, 02:00:24 AM »
"That is hardly the point of a tax increase strictly for one class of Americans"

Look, plane, you levy the folks who have the money. What would you suggest, raising taxes on NYC cab drivers or the workers at Dunkin Donuts (some of my favorite people BTW)?

Boy, either you posters in here are very young or you have very short memories. I remember when my father paid over 90% in income taxes and the economy did just fine.

BSB

"Thanks to the Tax Foundation and other sources, we've analyzed tax rates over the past century, along with government revenue and spending over the same period.

This analysis revealed a lot of surprising conclusions, including the following:

Today's government spending levels are indeed too high, at least relative to the average level of tax revenue the government has generated over the past 60 years. Unless Americans are willing to radically increase the amount of taxes they pay relative to GDP, government spending must be cut.

Today's income tax rates are strikingly low relative to the rates of the past century, especially for rich people.  For most of the century, including some boom times, top-bracket income tax rates were much higher than they are today.

Contrary to what Republicans would have you believe, super-high tax rates on rich people do not appear to hurt the economy or make people lazy: During the 1950s and early 1960s, the top bracket income tax rate was over 90%--and the economy, middle-class, and stock market boomed.

Super-low tax rates on rich people also appear to be correlated with unsustainable sugar highs in the economy--brief, enjoyable booms followed by protracted busts. They also appear to be correlated with very high inequality. (For example, see the 1920s and now).

Periods of very low tax rates have been followed by periods with very high tax rates, and vice versa. So history suggests that tax rates will soon start going up."


http://www.skweezer.com/s.aspx?q=http://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-tax-rates

Plane

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Re: Cutting Veteran's Benefits
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2012, 02:40:39 AM »
I question squezers version of history, it leaves a lot out.

It is never the case that taxes are the only factor, so corelations of boom times with high tax rates means nothing at all unless all other factors are controlled.

Taxes were at higher rates while Clinton was president than while Bush 43 was , but tax revenues to the government were higher while Bush 43 was president than they were while Clinton was.

That is not a complete picture is it?

Lets add one more factor , the baby boom generation, which acheived its highest earnings during the Clinton administration and started retireing during the Bush 43 period.

Those earners are not there anymore , Taxes taken at the rates of the Bush administraton or the Clinton administration will necessacerily be taken from a smaller tax base.

Also necessacery , is a greater number of retireees, this cannot be avoided either.

This is a terrible time to take on a huge new beaurocracy , the tax recipts are falling and certainly will whether you collect taxes like a Bush or like a Clinton.

Payroll taxes are going to be increased , and this is us working guys , who will in this generation all retire later than our elder brothers I garuntee it .

Two or three percent more tax on one or two percent of the population is such a spit in the ocean I wonder how the government can keep us talking about it so much.

I am a craftsman , I will do my best , but my president wants me to burn with hatred for those who earn a lot more than I do , I think he is being crafty and sinfull to encourage this useless class hatred.

Useless to me anyway , it is evidently usefull to him.

BSB

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Re: Cutting Veteran's Benefits
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2012, 03:48:19 AM »
"but my president wants me to burn with hatred for those who earn a lot more than I do "

What an appallingly ignorant statement.

BSB


Plane

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Re: Cutting Veteran's Benefits
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2012, 06:35:49 AM »
"but my president wants me to burn with hatred for those who earn a lot more than I do "

What an appallingly ignorant statement.

BSB

Yes , that is me.

But there the President is, insistantly doing exactly that.

So is he ignorant too?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Cutting Veteran's Benefits
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2012, 11:20:47 AM »
my president wants me to burn with hatred for those who earn a lot more than I do ,

===============================
That is bull!

He only wants to tax the earnings over $250K by 4% more. After all, only a very few people are so favored by the system which everyone knows is not fair.

That is not hatred.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Cutting Veteran's Benefits
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2012, 10:47:37 PM »
Oh?

And so he accuses only the class that pays the most already of not paying their fair share?

I really want a better explanation of what is ment by the phrase "fair share" and why it is such a constant accusation.

sirs

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Re: Cutting Veteran's Benefits
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2012, 02:06:26 AM »
my president wants me to burn with hatred for those who earn a lot more than I do ,
===============================
That is bull!

He only wants to tax the earnings over $250K by 4% more.


Why?  when it doesn't even remotely dent the debt, but has the ever present effect of inhibiting any job growth as those same rich folks decide they need to pay more in taxes instead of expanding and/or hiring more employees    :o

It makes no sense.  If you think it does, please explain how.  If you think I couldn't understand any explanation, then explain it to Plane.  He would understand, right?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BSB

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Re: Cutting Veteran's Benefits
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2012, 05:35:09 AM »
Higher taxes, lower taxes, what works what doesn't? These guys say nobody knows what really works and what doesn't.

BSB

>>What Do Tax Rates' Ups and Downs Mean for Economic Growth?

SUMMARY

Do higher tax rates slow economic growth? As part of his reporting on Making Sen$e of financial news, economics correspondent Paul Solman takes a look at the history of taxes.

SEN. JOHN KERRY, D-Mass.: I am deeply disappointed that this committee wasn't able to find an agreement.

PAUL SOLMAN: The super committee doomed in part by a deadlock over taxing the rich. Same for the bill to extend the payroll tax and unemployment benefits, held up by the issue of taxing millionaires.

And so the question: Do higher taxes on the rich retard economic growth, or don't they? We thought we'd look to history for an answer, visiting landmarks of New York with nonpartisan tax professor Alex Raskolnikov -- first stop, a memorial to World War I, which the U.S. entered in 1917, soon after the federal income tax began, with rates from 1 percent on a net income of up to $20,000 -- today's half-a-million or so -- en route to 7 percent on all earnings above $500,000, today's $11 million or more, higher rates on the extra or marginal income -- thus the term marginal tax rates.

In 1917, given the expensive war, Congress jacked the top marginal rate upward.

ALEX RASKOLNIKOV, Columbia Law School: From 7 percent to 77 percent. And, by the way, the phrase "soak the rich" emerged at that time, too.

PAUL SOLMAN: The new top marginal tax rate of 77 percent applied only to income starting at a million 1918 dollars. The average rate for the very rich, however, was only 15 percent.

ALEX RASKOLNIKOV: Fifteen percent average rate means the wealthiest Americans paid 15 percent of their overall income in taxes. It's not nothing, but it's not 77 percent.

PAUL SOLMAN: But 15 percent of your total income, that's not soaking the rich, is it?

ALEX RASKOLNIKOV: Well, it depends on your perspective. Compared to zero, which is what these people paid just a few years before, it's a substantial burden. Certainly, it was perceived as such.

PAUL SOLMAN: Was there a big political movement to try to reverse this?

ALEX RASKOLNIKOV: There was a huge movement to try to reverse that. President Harding advocated return to normalcy after the end of the First World War, and his treasury secretary, Andrew Mellon, who himself was not poor, was instrumental in reversing that trend.

PAUL SOLMAN: Banker and industrialist Andrew Mellon, whose foundation is on the Upper East Side of Manhattan, served Republican presidents throughout the 1920s.

ALEX RASKOLNIKOV: Andrew Mellon was one of the richest men in America, and he had a plan for repaying the wartime debt and stimulating economic growth. And his plan was to cut down the tax rates dramatically. And that's what Republicans proceeded to do. The top marginal rate came down from 77 percent all the way down to 25 percent.

PAUL SOLMAN: And stayed down. For evidence of tax cut effectiveness, proponents like Arthur Laffer say, just look at the next decade, starting in the 1920s.

ART LAFFER, former White House economic adviser: And we had the only boom in the world during that period. It was called the -- remember, the Roaring '20s. On Jan. 1, 1932, the highest marginal income tax rate was raised from 24 percent to 63 percent. We know what followed. It wasn't a pretty picture.

PAUL SOLMAN: Does Professor Raskolnikov agree about the roaring growth of the Roaring '20s?

ALEX RASKOLNIKOV: So the question is whether the rate cut at the top contributed to that growth, accounted for that growth, or did nothing in particular for that growth. And that's not exactly clear. The '20s was a fairly good period for the economy, until the end of '20s, when things went dramatically bad.

PAUL SOLMAN: A symbol of the era's end: Republican Herbert Hoover, who presided over the crash of '29, hiked taxes in 1931, was thumped in '32, and moved to the Waldorf Astoria hotel as the Great Depression deepened.

Do you read anything into this, I mean, that perhaps the Great Depression continued for another nine years because rates were jacked up that high?

ALEX RASKOLNIKOV: There were many factors going into Depression. Tax policy was only one of them, so it's hard to know.

PAUL SOLMAN: Many factors, the vexing problem with trying to pin economic growth on tax rates, as the raised rates of President Roosevelt make clear. We airlifted to an island named after him across New York's East River.

So, next stop, Roosevelt Island, the Franklin Delano Roosevelt Drive over there. What happens under Roosevelt?

ALEX RASKOLNIKOV: Two big things happen under Roosevelt. One, the top marginal rates increase even more. They go up all the way to 94 percent, very high top marginal rates.

And, two, the income tax, our income tax, changes from a class tax to a mass tax. The percentage of potential taxpayers who are actually paying taxes goes from just 6 percent to 34 percent. So now it's around 50 percent.

PAUL SOLMAN: Why was there suddenly a need for so much revenue?

ALEX RASKOLNIKOV: Revenue was needed to fund The New Deal, to build public projects like the FDR Drive and highways and dams and public works.

PAUL SOLMAN: And the rich mainly paid for them.

ALEX RASKOLNIKOV: Not only the marginal rates were very high. Average rates for the top 1 percent of income earners went from 20 percent to 40 percent, one year to 60 percent. So this is a very high average rate.

FORMER PRESIDENT FRANKLIN DELANO ROOSEVELT: You may have heard that I was driving the nation into bankruptcy, and that I breakfasted every morning on a dish of grilled millionaire.

(LAUGHTER)

PAUL SOLMAN: Conceivably, high taxes on the rich prolonged the Great Depression, but, then, how to explain the postwar boom, right through the Republican administration of Dwight Eisenhower, when the top marginal rate remained in the 90s? And when President Kennedy cut the top rate, growth didn't exactly soar.

President Reagan? Cut rates drastically, as advisers like Arthur Laffer urged.

ALEX RASKOLNIKOV: Two big tax cuts, one in '81 and another one in '86. The top rate came down from 50 percent to 28 percent, and that's the lowest it's been since Andrew Mellon.

PAUL SOLMAN: What was the rationale for that?

ALEX RASKOLNIKOV: That if you cut taxes, you will stimulate growth and that growth will trickle down from the top all the way to the bottom of the income distribution.

PAUL SOLMAN: And what happened?

ALEX RASKOLNIKOV: Not a whole lot of trickling down.

PAUL SOLMAN: So does that refute the notion that, if you cut taxes, you stimulate growth?

ALEX RASKOLNIKOV: It's not exactly clear, but -- but there's no strong support for the proposition that trickle-down works.

PAUL SOLMAN: Of course, strong political support for the proposition continues to the present. But, sadly, says the professor, there's no academic consensus.

And the evidence gets no more definitive at the next major stop, outside President Clinton's office on 125th Street in Harlem. Clinton boosted the top marginal rate from 31 percent to 39.6 percent.

ALEX RASKOLNIKOV: Economic growth spiked after the Clinton tax increase. And although no one says that high tax rates lead to economic growth, this kind of fact is certainly not the greatest fact if you want to argue that higher tax rates, top marginal rates impede economic growth. So relationship is complicated.

PAUL SOLMAN: And complicated, it remains. Economic growth hasn't exactly spurted in the wake of the tax cuts of George W. Bush, which President Obama reluctantly agreed to extend through next year.

We ended our day trip at Zuccotti Park, when Wall Street Occupiers were still protesting the inequality gap between the top 1 percent and the rest. But, when it comes to taxes, is that a bum rap?

We hear that the top 1 percent pay the lion's share of income taxes, and more than they used to.

ALEX RASKOLNIKOV: Both of these statements are absolutely true. In fact, the share of total tax burden paid by top 1 percent almost doubled in the past 30 years.

PAUL SOLMAN: But doesn't that show that America has become more fair?

ALEX RASKOLNIKOV: Well, it depends on how you think about fairness, because even though the burden borne by top 1 percent has doubled, if you look at the rate of the income growth, it's been 10 times the growth of the middle 20 percent. So the income inequality increased dramatically. And right before financial crisis, it was at the highest level since 1928, since Andrew Mellon was cutting taxes in the '20s.

PAUL SOLMAN: At the end of the day, then, high inequality and a sluggish economy.

Unfortunately, if history is any guide, there's no conclusive evidence that economic growth is stimulated by lowering marginal tax rates on the rich, or, for that matter, raising them.<<

http://www.skweezer.com/s.aspx/-/to~pbs~org/sRHDSj

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Cutting Veteran's Benefits
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2012, 10:40:50 AM »
I really want a better explanation of what is ment by the phrase "fair share" and why it is such a constant accusation.

=====================================
You pay for what you get.

People making this much get way more out of the unfair system than others.

They should pay more. A lousy 4% more on income over $250K.That is not much, considering how much they have and are getting. It is logic that drives this, not hate.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: Cutting Veteran's Benefits
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2012, 12:45:01 PM »
I really want a better explanation of what is ment by the phrase "fair share" and why it is such a constant accusation.

=====================================
You pay for what you get.

People making this much get way more out of the unfair system than others.

They should pay more. A lousy 4% more on income over $250K.That is not much, considering how much they have and are getting. It is logic that drives this, not hate.


I think they should raise the taxes on retired public servants. They profited from the system because they were the system.

Besides they are a small group and don't have the votes to do anything about it.


sirs

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Re: Cutting Veteran's Benefits
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2012, 01:24:45 PM »
Sounds "fair", right?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Cutting Veteran's Benefits
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2012, 03:33:08 PM »
If they made bazillions, that might make sense. But they do not, so it doesn't.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: Cutting Veteran's Benefits
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2012, 03:54:52 PM »
If they made bazillions, that might make sense. But they do not, so it doesn't.

It isn't about money. It is about fairness. Substitute another group if you like.

Maybe retired government officials who leave office and become a lobbyist. How about a 50% surcharge on anything they make over their govt salary for a period of five years. Because their value is in the connections they made while in office.