Author Topic: I've always slightly suspected this: "Let 'em kill each other over there vs NY"!  (Read 3046 times)

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Xavier_Onassis

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He rejected the Syrian opposition movement as "puppets fabricated by the West," and said that Syria wanted to negotiate with the "master not the servants."

===============================================
Assad seems to be on his last legs. Who would the "master" be that Assad wants to negotiate with?

In a democracy, the people are the masters, but an election in Syria at this time would be impossible.

The opposition to Assad are certainly not his servants: servants, by definition, serve the master. The opposition is not serving Assad. Perhaps this is a poor translation.  Maybe it rhymes in Arabic, making it seem like a cute turn of phrase rather than a seriously dumb metaphor.

Assad follows the ideology of the Baath Party, which has always opposed kings and emirs. The Saudis, and all the states ruled by monarchs have always opposed the Baathists. Of course, in a real democracy, Assad would not be president, he would still be working as a doctor in London. He was apparently good at that. In a democracy, fathers do not pass the presidency down to sons. THAT is a typical move for monarchs.

Here is what Wikipedia says about the Baath Socialist Party:

The motto "Unity, Liberty, Socialism" (Arabic: ????? ????? ????????? Wa?dah, ?urr?yah, Ishtir?k?yah) was inspired by the French Jacobin political doctrine linking national unity and social equity.[1] Unity refers to Arab unity, or Pan-Arabism; liberty emphasizes freedom from foreign control and interference (self-determination); socialism refers to Arab socialism, rather than to European socialism or communism. The idea that national freedom and the glory of the Arab Nation had been destroyed by Ottoman and Western imperialism was expounded in Michel Aflaq’s works On the Way of Resurrection and The Battle for One Destiny. Aflaq is commonly considered to be the father of Ba'athism.

Arab nationalism was influenced by 19th Century mainland European thinkers, notably conservative German philosophers such as Johann Gottlieb Fichte of the Königsberg University Kantian school,[2] and French Positivists such as Auguste Comte and professor Ernest Renan of the Collège de France in Paris.[3] Ba'ath party co-founders Aflaq and Salah al-Bitar both studied at the Sorbonne in the early 1930s when Positivism was still the dominant ideology among France’s academic elite.

The Kulturnation concept of Johann Gottfried Herder and the Grimm Brothers also had an impact. Kulturnation defines a nationality by its common cultural traditions and popular folklore, rather than by national, political, or religious boundaries. It was considered by some[who?] to be more suitable for German, Arab, Ottoman and Turkic countries.

Germany was seen as an anti-colonial power and friend of the Arab world; cultural and economic exchange and infrastructure projects such as the Baghdad Railway supported that impression. According to Paul Berman, early Arab nationalist thinker Sati' al-Husri was influenced by Fichte, a German philosopher famous for his conception of the nation-state and his influence on the German unification movement.

The Ba'ath party had a significant number of Christian Arabs among its founding members. For them, especially Aflaq, a resolutely nationalist and secular political framework was a way to evade faith-based Islamic orientation, prevent the marginalization of non-Muslims, and get full acknowledgment as citizens. During General Rashid Ali al-Gaylani's short-lived anti-British military coup in 1941, Iraq-based Arab nationalists (Sunni Muslims as well as Chaldean Christians) asked the Nazi German government to support them against British colonial rule.

Michael Aflaq seems to be a Christian name. Muslims are not named Michael.

I like the coincidence that his surname is so similar to the name of a company with a well-known spokesduck.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 01:42:24 PM by Xavier_Onassis »
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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   The Verdun strategy was to pound Verdun, the French dead and wounded would be replaced with fresh troops and the replacements would be pounded in their turn and this would continue until the French had rotated most of their manpower through this meatgrinder.

    This worked pretty well for a while , until unaccountably a German force actually took Verdun and tried to hold it , then the meatgrinder worked quite well with French shells causing German casualties .

     The point of this kind of strategy is that it should go on a long time , and thereby eat a large chunk of the enemies manpower and other resources. It is actually counterproductive to find resolution, because the holding of territory is just a ruse , the point is really the attrition.

     Yes, this is possibly the real strategy , and yes it could possibly  work quite well at reducing the Al Queda , manpower , money , weapons and morale would be wasted in large amounts until Al Queda would be a ghost.

     This would require collusion between all the major powers involved , this is possible because no one who loves Al Quieda is a major power.  ..so.. check.
      It requires a long and bloody conflict,... check.
       It requires confinement of the conflict in an area where artillery and bombing can be made efficient... check.

      It requires a very hard attitude twards the suffering of everyone trapped in the theater,.....

Xavier_Onassis

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Syria is looking more and more like the long civil war in  Lebanon.
That did not serve any real purpose, other than to eliminate a generation of young Lebanese.
Lebanon is still divided between religious groups who find it hard to compromise.
Were it not for the Israeli occupation, it would have gone on longer. Eventually, all Lebanese agreed on one thing, that the Israelis were unwelcome.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Syrians were involved in keeping the civil war in Lebanon long.

This is one chicken coming home to roost.


There are a lot of chickens like that, even some that don't know where to roost.

Christians4LessGvt

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Assad seems to be on his last legs.

I'm not so sure....
and I'm also not sure Assad is even the "bad guy" in this scenario
the so called "rebels" appear to possibly be even worse than Assad.
it's scary but I again side with Putin's logic
Putin thought it was stupid to help overthrow Khadafi because the replacements would be worse
I think Putin is probably correct again about Syria
So yeah I'm happy to see Russian Warships in Syrian waters to
protect against Obama actions that might result in Islamists taking over Syria.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Xavier_Onassis

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Assad is not a good guy by any definition. He's toast, anyway.

Can anyone recall of any leader who managed to stay in power after a year of civil war?

So far as I can remember, this NEVER has happened, certainly not in recent times.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Almost modern.

Christians4LessGvt

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Assad is not a good guy by any definition.

Hitler and Assad are both in the bad guy category,
but I assume given the choice most sane people would choose an Assad type over a Hitler type.
The point being there is worse than "bad guy".
It doesnt matter if Assad is not a good guy, especially if the rebels are worse.
We should not have been involved in overthrowing the leader of Libya and now Syria.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Christians4LessGvt

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"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Xavier_Onassis

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It was wise to defeat Qaddaffi because he was strafing his people. Severe violence like that can turn a country into a huge mess, as happened in Cambodia: the result of overthrowing Sihanouk was Pol Pot and the US invasion,and the result of that was Pol Pot.

Libya has vast amounts of oil that is could easily sell to China. The President did the right thing to depose Qaddaffi. I think that what we are doing in Syria is also the best possible course of action. The more the influence of Turkey on Syria, the better it will be.

I do not favor putting any American troops into Syria, because we would be seen as doing Israel's handiwork,and that is probably what we would be doing.

I suggest that you know far too little about Syria and the Arab world to be any sort of expert. Maybe if you watched more Al Jazeera you might actually learn something.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Christians4LessGvt

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It was wise to defeat Qaddaffi

No it was actually dumb as hell. Islamist will most likely take over
and conditions are worse now than when Khadaffi was in charge.

The President did the right thing to depose Qaddaffi.

No Obama made a huge blunder in Libya and I believe time will show that clearly.
Already one dead US Ambassador is just the start of things to come.
Things are horrible in Libya.

I suggest that you know far too little about Syria and the Arab world to be any sort of expert.
Maybe if you watched more Al Jazeera you might actually learn something.

I suggest that you know far too little about reality and just blindly approve of
pretty much whatever Obama does.....you're nothing but a leftist party hack.
And you also have no idea what you are talking about concerning me watching
Al Jazeera....hell I even posted the link to watch it on-line on this message board.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Christians4LessGvt

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Trading a bad man for worse in Libya

by: Andrew Bolt

LIBYA may yet turn out to be one of the worst own-goals in Western diplomacy. It may also make Barack Obama's premature Nobel Peace Prize seem the biggest joke in prize history.

The UN Security Council approved bombing raids on Libya "to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack".

Muammar Gaddafi then seemed on the brink of crushing a revolt against him, and was threatening a bloodbath in Benghazi.

But if protecting civilian lives was the aim, the result was a failure. Seven months later the fighting continues, and it's now the civilians of the Gaddafi stronghold of Sirte who are are dying.

There was heady talk early on of the "Arab Spring" of protests allegedly bringing democracy to Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen and Libya also.

And, success. Gaddafi is gone. The trouble is, who exactly is replacing him?

The most powerful military leader in the Libyan capital is Abdul-Aziz Belhadj, an Islamist captured by the CIA soon after the September 11 attacks, then sent to jail in Libya.

Now head of the Tripoli Military Council, he once ran the rebel Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, arms of which had ties to al-Qaeda.

Back then he declared he'd fight "all the deviant groups that call for democracy", although now he says he does want democracy and opposes terror attacks on civilians.

Gaddafi was indeed brutal and did sponsor terrorist attacks but in recent years seemed to be tamed, even giving up his secret nuclear weapon program. He also fought Islamists and had reached a power-sharing balance with the tribes.

But if Libya now goes wrong? Imagine the worst: Islamist extremists in charge of Libya's rich oil fields.

This could yet turn out ugly, and the West can only hope its gamble will work out: that even Islamists will accept democracy, after all.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/trading-a-bad-man-for-worse-in-libya/story-e6frezz0-1226164192729
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Christians4LessGvt

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Human Rights Worse After Gaddafi

By Mel Frykberg
 
TRIPOLI, Jul 14 2012 (IPS) - The human rights situation in Libya now is far worse than under the late dictator Muammar Gaddafi, Nasser al-Hawary, researcher with the Libyan Observatory for Human Rights tells IPS.

Hawary showed IPS testimonies from families whose loved ones have been beaten to death in the custody of the many militias that continue to control vast swathes of Libya.

"At least 20 people have been beaten to death in militia custody since the revolution, and this is a conservative figure. The real figure is probably far higher," says Hawary, pointing to photos of bloodied bodies accompanying the testimonies.

Hawary is no fan of the Gaddafi regime. The former Salafist and political oponent of Gaddafi was imprisoned numerous times as a poitical dissident by Gaddafi?s secret police.

Hawary emerged from his periods of incarceration beaten and bloodied, but not broken. Far worse happened to his Islamist friends under the Gaddafi regime which was fiercely opposed to Islamic fundamentalism.

Hawary eventually escaped to Egypt where he remained until Libya's February 17 revolution in 2011 made it safe for him and other Islamists to return.

Revenge attacks, killings and abductions against former Gaddafi supporters and against black men, who the rebels perceive as having worked as mercenaries for Gaddafi during the war, continue well after the "liberation" of the country.

Several months ago Muhammad Dossah, 28, was abducted by armed militia men at a checkpoint in the northern city Misrata as he was driving his employer Forrestor Oil Company?s car from the city Ras al Amoud to capital Tripoli.

"I don't know if he is dead or alive. We haven't heard from him since he disappeared from the militia checkpoint and the police investigating his disappearance say the trail has gone cold," his brother Hussam Dossah, 25, tells IPS.

The police managed to trace the car through several cities down the eastern side of Libya but there the trail ended. There has been no sighting of Muhammad since then, and his family have no idea what has happened to him.

"He could have been abducted because he is black or because the gunmen wanted the car he was driving. We are Libyan but my father is from Chad," says Hussam.

Hussam's story is one of many of abductions, random killings, torture and robbery as militia men continue to take the law into their hands.

Despite the interim National Transitional Council's (NTC) pledge to bring the more than 6,000 detainees currently in detention to trial or to release them, only some have been freed while the atrocities committed by pro-revolutionary rebels have been overlooked.

Armed militias controlling the streets and enforcing their version of law and order is a problem even in the major cities where the NTC has supposedly retaken control.

Gunfire punctuates the night regularly in Tripoli, and sometimes the day. "All the young men here have guns," former rebel fighter Suheil al Lagi tells IPS. "They are accustomed to sorting out political differences and petty squabbles this way, or they rob people using weapons. The high unemployment and financial hardship is aggravating the situation."

While security is an issue in Tripoli, the situation in the provinces is worse. Unshaven, ragtag militia men dressed in mismatching military fatigues often extort money from people travelling through their checkpoints, particularly if they are foreign or black.

Travelling from the Salloum border crossing with Egypt to Tripoli involves crossing dozens of checkpoints manned by numerous militias, comprising local clans with divided loyalties.

At a Misrata checkpoint that this IPS correspondent passed, a bearded militia man decided that foreigners would have to undergo Aids tests before they could have their travel documents returned. Only intervention by others prevented this.

At a number of checkpoints in the Tobruk area, migrant Egyptian labourers were forced to pay bribes of up to 30 dollars each by militiamen before their passports were returned.

"We are aware of the problems facing our country and are trying to resolve the issues," says Hassan Issa, member of the NTC from Ajdabia city. "It is not easy for us to bring all the groups under control at this point in time," NTC member Abdel Karim Subeihi tells IPS.

?This is not the new Libya we fought for and we may have to take up arms again if the corruption and greed continue. This time against the new government,? warns al Lagi.

http://www.ipsnews.net/2012/07/human-rights-worse-after-gaddafi/
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Xavier_Onassis

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President Obama's Nobel Prize had NOTHING to do with anything that happened in Tripoli or Libya.

What a stupid, biased piece of horseshit that is.

Libyans and Tunisians will figure out how to govern themselves as they wish. The rulers of both countries were doomed and nothing that the President could have logically done would have changed this. There is NO WAY that the US could have sent troops into Tunisia or Libya to keep either of these dictators in power, and that is all he could ever have done.






"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Christians4LessGvt

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President Obama's Nobel Prize had NOTHING to do with anything that happened in Tripoli or Libya.
What a stupid, biased piece of horseshit that is.

what a horse-shit response
No one said Obama's fraud Nobel Prize had anything to do with Libya.
But like the author implied it is odd that the guy gets a fraud Nobel "Peace" Prize
and then starts war-mongering all over where no US National Interests exist like Libya

Libyans and Tunisians will figure out how to govern themselves as they wish.

Or kill a bunch of each other ....Thanks Obama!

The rulers of both countries were doomed and nothing that the President could have logically done would have changed this.

Oh baloney....Khadaffi was no where close to being doomed,
in fact quite the opposite...he was about to crush the rebels and terrorists
until Obama and Nato started thousands of bombing missions and helping the rebels

There is NO WAY that the US could have sent troops into Tunisia or Libya to keep either of these dictators in power, and that is all he could ever have done.

No one called for Obama to send troops to save Khadaffi
thats a straw man argument
What Obama could have done is let the Libyans sort it out themselves
instead Obama choose to pick the winner
which more and more looks like Islamist that will be terrible for Libya
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987