Author Topic: Publicly financed elections?  (Read 6508 times)

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sirs

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Publicly financed elections?
« on: February 06, 2007, 01:36:53 PM »
No.  Anything that inhibits individuals from making their voice heard, which includes purchasing air time and ad time, is a polar opposite of what the 1st amendment is all about.  (Kinda like the unFairness Docrtrine).  No limits, but COMPLETE DISCLOSURE of who's getting how much from whom.  That way everyone can track precisely where money is going and if there are any obvious quid-pro-quo set-ups running, vs vague innuendo from a vague group calling themselves, the Freedom for America Coalition.

Just my 2 cents
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Brassmask

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Re: Publicly financed elections?
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2007, 05:21:28 PM »
Fair enough.  Let's go with the understanding that you are completely against this and see where we can get to past that.  In reality, you are against it but let's say for discussion's sake that you are willing to find some mutual ground where it would still irk the crap out of you but you could live with it happening if (X).  Ok?

What if it was handled in this manner?  (These numbers are arbitrary and not the point of the discussion.  They can be made real in a later discussion one we find out where you could live with it.)

Everyone who gets, say, 50,000 signatures and $5 with from everyone who signs is then eligible for public financing.  This way its not just everyone and their brother signing up to get like $180,000 bucks for a gubernatorial race wherever.

But if someone does do what is required then they get the money.  (The sum would be determined by an average of the last three races' expenditures.)

Anyone who doesn't want to be publicly funded can opt out, no questions asked and they can raise all the money they want within the limits, for instance $2400 per person.

However, should someone opt out and raise more than the public funds limit, the state must then match each publicly funded candidate to the dollar that is raised by the candidate(s) who opted out?

Here's why I would definitely be FOR this.  It absolutely doesn't do what you are worried about.  It doesn't restrict anyone's free speech.  If donors want to fund a candidate then they can and no one's stopping them but it doesn't allow that candidate to buy the election by having more airtime, ads than anyone else which I would hope you would agree is how some candidates have gotten into office. 

We can say what we will about Ross Perot.  I was very much in favor of his candidacy and for a short time felt that he was my guy.  (I soon got the feeling he was kinda coo-coo.)  What I loved about his run was that he wasn't shut out because he had the money to play with the big boys.  Compare this to the candidacy of someone like Ralph Nader who couldn't compete in that same manner and had he been able to play with the big boys, who is to say what might have happened?  It really doesn't matter what might have happened because he didn't have the money.

And that's the point.  If the Big Two are competing at the $180,000 level and someone who really wants in can't raise $30,000 and compete then Americans have choice limitations.  If freedom of choice is the goal, then supporting such a system as public financing only INCREASES choices.

With public financing, the also-ran parties of days gone by (Libertarian, Green, Socialist, whatever) have a shot and the elections can be decided on MERITS rather than name recognition.

The reservation I can see having greater merit on the other side of argument is that our tax dollars would be going to fund a candidacy that we might not necessarily agree with or may viscerally oppose.  For me, for instance, it would really irk me if someone in the KKK where to get the necessary signatures and matching funds then qualify for the public funding.

What makes me ok with that is that it allows whoever I signed for and gave $5 to then, highlight the fact that the KKK candidate is a racist, therefore the question is not can the KKK raise more money and more money to make their message on non-racist topics louder with more advertising till the racist charge can't be heard because the other guy can't keep up financially.

Another plus to public financing is that it frees up the elected official to actually do his job.  Rather than spending a lot of time at fundraisers and begging for money constantly, the elected official can actually listen to people and get to know his constituency as a whole rather than as dollar amounts.  The plight of the middle and lower classes could actually get the ear of the official because he isn't being paid for his time in hopes of raising more money from whoever can throw a lot of money his way.  Since the money issue is removed, the only way he can keep his office is by actually listening to the people who elected him and pleasing them.

With public financing or "clean elections", a full audit of the expenditures of the candidate would only be natural.

Lastly, this is already happening in many places across the US.

From Wikipedia
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Clean Elections (also called Clean Money or Voter-Owned Elections) is a system of government financing of political campaigns (a form of campaign finance reform). It is currently (2006) only being voted and implemented on the state level in the United States. Some form of Clean Elections legislation has been adopted, mostly through ballot initiatives, in Maine, Arizona, North Carolina, New Mexico, Vermont, and Massachusetts (though in the latter two it has been weakened or repealed). Clean Elections was passed by the Connecticut state legislature and signed by the Governor in December of 2005. Two municipalities in 2005, Albuquerque, New Mexico, and Portland, Oregon have also passed Clean Elections for municipal elections. A clean elections ballot initiative, Proposition 89 was defeated in California in 2006 by almost a 3-1 margin.

Under a Clean Elections system, candidates hoping to receive public financing must collect a certain number of small "qualifying contributions" (often as little as $5) from registered voters. In return, they are paid a flat sum by the government to run their campaign, and agree not to raise money from private sources. Clean Elections candidates who are outspent by privately-funded opponents may receive additional public matching funds.

Because the system is voluntary, it appears not to run afoul of the United States Supreme Court's Buckley v. Valeo decision, which struck down mandatory spending limits as an unconstitutional restriction on free speech.

Comprehensive Clean Elections systems have been in effect in Arizona and Maine for several years. Not surprisingly, most candidates take the subsidies rather than compete under the resulting handicap of raising voluntary contributions. In Maine, an overwhelming majority (3/4) of state legislators take the government money. In Arizona, the same is true of a majority of the state house, as well as the current Governor (Janet Napolitano). In 2005 Connecticut also passed a Clean Elections bill.

One thing I forgot.  It only behooves the candidate to stay in the public financing and not opt out and raise more money because doing so would cost the tax payers more money.  If I opt out and raise $500,000 then the state or whoever must then match every other candidate (maybe not dollar for dollar in some cases) another $320,000 on top of what they've already gotten.  Now that may not be an impediment to some but I think the voters would eventually catch on that anyone opting out feels that they can't compete on the issues and amplify their lackluster message in order to get greater name recognition.

sirs

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Re: Publicly financed elections?
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2007, 06:01:49 PM »
Fair enough.  Let's go with the understanding that you are completely against this and see where we can get to past that.  In reality, you are against it but let's say for discussion's sake that you are willing to find some mutual ground where it would still irk the crap out of you but you could live with it happening if (X).  Ok?

1st and formost is a recognition of the power such a policy of completely publically financed capaigns gives the media.  With their 1st amendment protection, they're allowed to editorialize and skew their questions & reporting in any direction they chose, as it relates to candidates and theor platforms.

Can we get that recognition to start?  Then we can start to move from there



"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Brassmask

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Re: Publicly financed elections?
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2007, 06:06:57 PM »
Quote
1st and formost is a recognition of the power such a policy of completely publically financed capaigns gives the media.  With their 1st amendment protection, they're allowed to editorialize and skew their questions & reporting in any direction they chose, as it relates to candidates and theor platforms.

Can we get that recognition to start?  Then we can start to move from there

Oh aye, absolutely.

If then we agree on that point and are then willing to look at a possibility we can each live with, how then shall we combat the press' undue influence?

Brassmask

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Re: Publicly financed elections?
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2007, 10:53:15 PM »
Don't let this die.

Plane

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Re: Publicly financed elections?
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2007, 12:02:52 AM »
The undue influence of the press?


The sorces of our information will be the government , the canadates and the press , the press should be a many headed beast with each head in competition for its food . The many headed press is an ugly beast but the alternative is a tame press or takeing the govbernment and the canadates word for what they say.

The Press should be actively searching for canadates to push on every side of every race.

Brassmask

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Re: Publicly financed elections?
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2007, 12:13:42 AM »
One of our concerns with this idea is that it could potentially give the "media" too much influence over which candidates get "news" coverage and positive spin.  It could potentially be given too much influence over what information is highlighted on each candidate.

Just a question, would this then be a case where a scaled down, ultra-specific version of the "Fairness Doctrine" could be beneficial?

sirs

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Re: Publicly financed elections?
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2007, 12:16:36 AM »
Don't let this die.

I've been away, and just got home.  Now I have to eat dinner, take a shower, and watch "House".  THEN I can get back to this.  K?    8)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Publicly financed elections?
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2007, 12:22:45 AM »
I think if we are discussing publicly financing elections, we should probably define what elections we would finance.

We currently finance presidential elections, would we extend that to the primaries?

Would there be a minimum threshold a candidate would have to meet in order to qualify for funds?

Should we extend financing to Senatorial Campaigns?

or Congressional Seats?

How about State Governments?

or local governments?

At what point does the cost of a campaign become prohibitive?

What are those costs and what alternate means are there to achieve the same ends.


Brassmask

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Re: Publicly financed elections?
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2007, 12:23:40 AM »
That's cool.  I'm having to take something called "Notussin" as part of my sinus infection treatment and I'm nearly passing out at the machine so I won't reply tonight but it's kind of slow at work today, so I'll get back on it in the morrow.


Brassmask

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Re: Publicly financed elections?
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2007, 12:42:55 AM »
Quote
I think if we are discussing publicly financing elections, we should probably define what elections we would finance.

My concern is that we might get bogged down in the specifics of plans for certain elections and lose sight of the overview of what plan would be livable for everyone.  If we must define a certain election, I would like to qualify it as a governor's race such as the Arizona governor's election.
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We currently finance presidential elections, would we extend that to the primaries?
Here too, I feel that this is putting the horse before the cart.  That decision should be left till after we have a hypothetical system that is agreeable to everyone possible.  We're still in a phase of trying to find out if there is even an agreeable system much less whether or not it would extend to primaries.  I would love to see this go that far, but would you be ok with us holding off on that decision for now?
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Would there be a minimum threshold a candidate would have to meet in order to qualify for funds?

In the hypothetical that I thumbnailed in my first reply to Sirs' there was.  I had set it at an arbitrary number and didn't pay attention to how it would all add up.  I said 50,000 signatures and $5 from each who signed and that comes to $250,000 but then I said that they would be given $180,000  for the whole election.  I think the idea would be to make the qualifying amount less than the amount given by the state for the campaign.  This, of course, would differ state to state.  I may be wrong but I would hypothesize that a Rhode Island gubernatorial campaign would cost less than a New York state campaign.

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Should we extend financing to Senatorial Campaigns?
or Congressional Seats?

How about State Governments?

or local governments?

I would be for it some kind of clean elections in every level of government.   Is there some reason not to be for one of them specifically?

Quote
At what point does the cost of a campaign become prohibitive?

In my opinion, the state should set a limit; however, then we would definitely run afoul of the whole "restricting free speech in the form of money" situation again.  Although, I suspect that the taxpayers of the state (keeping with the gubernatorial race example for our discussion) would eventually tire of candidates opting out and racing exorbitant sums of money which they, the taxpayers would then be beholden to match for the other candidates.

Quote
What are those costs and what alternate means are there to achieve the same ends.


What would you say they are?

Plane

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Re: Publicly financed elections?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2007, 01:41:01 AM »
If someone is really a great leader ,can't he round up some funding?

sirs

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Re: Publicly financed elections?
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2007, 02:18:21 AM »
Quote
1st and formost is a recognition of the power such a policy of completely publically financed capaigns gives the media.  With their 1st amendment protection, they're allowed to editorialize and skew their questions & reporting in any direction they choose, as it relates to candidates and their platforms.  Can we get that recognition to start? 

Oh aye, absolutely.  If then we agree on that point and are then willing to look at a possibility we can each live with, how then shall we combat the press' undue influence?

This would be the core problem that needs to be solved before we (I) could start to hash out actual cornerstone ideas in what to accept towards publically financed elections.

So.....a new "Fairness Doctrine" specifc to the media?  Some independent organization that's given some assemblence of authority, by 1st keeping track of the editorials and candidate questions the mainstream outlets produce, tabbing when they lean in 1 ideological direction, and obligating them to then lean the other way, or risk some form of pentalty, such as a fine, or something.  This isn't preventing any news organization to come out against X candidate and their platform, simply requiring them to come up why they should also be against Y candidate & his/her platform. 

Or do you have a better idea at how to curb unilateral influence
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Publicly financed elections?
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2007, 04:56:06 AM »
A civil servant (like me) could be given the job of determining what an even divison of media assets amounted to.

sirs

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Re: Publicly financed elections?
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2007, 05:31:52 AM »
A civil servant (like me) could be given the job of determining what an even divison of media assets amounted to.

Ok, let's run with that.  Let's say Plane has been given the position of Chief CMW; Campaign Media Watchdog.  What would be your responsibilities?  How would you determine when a news outlet or mainstream media source was overtly skewing their campaign coverage in 1 direction, and more importantly, how would you enforce "balance and fairness"?  Would their be some sort of incentive provided to facilitate balance?  Quota system, perhaps?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle