Author Topic: Bravo Humble Sceptic  (Read 1863 times)

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Plane

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Bravo Humble Sceptic
« on: November 26, 2014, 12:08:53 AM »



http://carbon-comic.com/comic/112-oxygen-pills/

112 Oxygen Pills

on June 23, 2014

Chapter: 2




The other day I attended a brunch between the Pike Peak Skeptics Society and a number of other local secular groups. Two outspoken atheists (by their own description) were talking about religion in line, one of them wearing the “together we can find a cure” [for religion] t-shirt and the other an atheist convention shirt. They were overheard by a young woman in front of them. The young woman, who seemed very modern and friendly, was also visibly upset and composed herself as she approached those individuals at our table. She asked the older woman in the atheist t-shirt if she could speak with her, who did not stand or oblige a private conversation.

This represented a true opportunity for dialogue, and I watched the conversation unfold from the center of the table in full view of our group and half the restaurant. The young woman’s complaint was that it wasn’t fair for them to talk so negatively about christians as a stereotype, that she was happy we had a group and that she wouldn’t attack us in that way, and how was it wrong for her and her husband to sit and read a bible together? It took her a lot of courage to ask this in front of twenty potentially hostile strangers.

I’m sorry to say the defensive response from the three individuals nearest the end of the table amounted to “religion is a lie” and it supports “slavery and the oppression of women.” She had asked for equal respect, and they didn’t hear what she was asking. They ganged up in conversation against her christianity, and she started to cry in frustration.

I was embarrassed and appalled at what I heard. I stood up to lend the young woman my support, and end the conversation. She acknowledged a lost cause, and left in tears.

(This Amazing Meeting talk by Phil Plait sums up all my barely contained frustration in that moment)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrFRbGjUtJk&feature=player_embedded



What are you trying to achieve?

Ten minutes later, I found the woman and her husband, and offered to buy them a coffee. The encounter had clearly shaken her, and I assured her that she was absolutely right to have asked for our respect. We had an excellent conversation after which her husband shook my hand and she seemed relieved to have been understood.

The discussion that ensued back at the secular brunch afterwords had an all-too-common theme. “Did you talk to them?” Yes, I did. “Did you apologize?” Yes, I did. “Well I don’t want you to apologize for me. I meant to be outspoken.” Well, you were representing this entire table. You were representing atheists everywhere, and you just confirmed the worst for everyone in earshot. What outcome do you hope to achieve, and how exactly do you think you can accomplish this by making one person cry at Panera?

I felt that this story is important enough to share here. You can make fun of an idea, you can attack an argument, but you have to respect the person. People engage in these difficult conversations because they care in one way or another. If you can’t separate who they are from what you’re arguing about, you need to walk away.

I try my best to maintain a high level of civility, especially here on my own website.

I wanted to reference Daniel Loxton’s excellent CFI Summit speech about why he is a skeptical activist. I, like him, am secular and the terms atheist and humanist both reflect my views. However, I am not a secular activist – I am a skeptical activist.

To quote Loxton:

The most important reasons to keep skepticism distinct from politics and metaphysics are simply honesty and clarity. When we position skepticism as “science-based,” when we position ourselves as science-based critics or science advocates, we take on an obligation to be honest about the sorts of questions science can answer—an obligation to work within, or at very least forthrightly describe, the empirical framework of science.

I recognize that skepticism shares a large demographic with all the other secular interest groups. However, skepticism and the promotion of science should at all times be apolitical. Yes, you will give offense. You will attack ideas. But you can do both calmly and respectfully.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Bravo Humble Sceptic
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2014, 06:54:53 AM »
I fail to see the point. Atheists have every right to hold meetings and discuss them, just as Christians. They do not invade churches and tell the people to stop badmouthing atheists, who are often compared as agents of Satan by preachers. No one was telling this y woman that she had no right to read the Bible with her husband.

Christians that hold the same beliefs regularly gather and talk about their common beliefs and I know of no case in which some atheists and invades their service and says crap like, "you are not being fair to us atheists".

The least Christians can do is accord atheists the same expectation that they will not be waylaid and drawn into some argument about how "unfair" they are.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Bravo Humble Sceptic
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2014, 07:02:02 AM »
I am Shocked -SHOCKED that you missed the point on this one.


Hehehehe...


Do we take ourselves very seriously?

Does this make us better representatives of our philosophy?

Do we care to be good representatives , diplomats even evangelists on behalf of our own favorite philosophical bends?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Bravo Humble Sceptic
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2014, 07:19:51 AM »
What is the point? Tell me.

Walking in the an Atheist group's meeting is  EXACTLY like walking into a Sunday School class and telling all the Christians they are being unfair to atheists.

Bitch was out of line.  And they made her cry, boo hoo.

So what is the fucking point that I missed?
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Bravo Humble Sceptic
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2014, 09:04:29 PM »
What is the point? Tell me.

Walking in the an Atheist group's meeting is  EXACTLY like walking into a Sunday School class and telling all the Christians they are being unfair to atheists.

Bitch was out of line.  And they made her cry, boo hoo.

So what is the fucking point that I missed?

Where you live they hold Sunday School in the midst of Restaurants?

That must be nice.

Quote
"Two outspoken atheists (by their own description) were talking about religion in line, one of them wearing the “together we can find a cure” [for religion] t-shirt and the other an atheist convention shirt. They were overheard by a young woman in front of them.

   This is more like you are waiting your turn at a Buffet and hear a pair of evangelists discussing the demise of reason (as you know it) right behind you.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Bravo Humble Sceptic
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2014, 12:56:12 PM »
We hold meetings of the South Florida Chapter of Mercedes Benz of America in restaurants all the time.  For the past 16 years that I have been a member, no Beemer fanciers, Alfistas, Porshe pilots or Jaguar junkies have seen any reason to interrupt our meetings to play flame wars.

I see no real purpose in atheists holding meetings, it is rather like meetings for peanut brittle fans or people with peanut allergies holding meetings, but I see no reason why those who do not share their beliefs need to interrupt their meetings to tell them about Jeezus, either. But of course, I am an agnostic, and I do not see militant agnosticism as a logical possibility. It would be like the Club of People Who Sometimes Eat Soup.

I am fine with this woman reading the Bible with her husband.  But really, what would you expect?
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Bravo Humble Sceptic
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2014, 02:54:52 PM »
  You never overhear a nearby conversation and join it?

    Or raise an objection?

      I don't very often , even though I like an argument.
     
        Yet I can't say I never do.

           Doesn't it depend on the subject?

             If I don't care or if it seems like an unpleasant fight will be the result ,I probably will hold my peace.

       On the other hand I don't speak in public of things likely to invite comment .

           So if I were speaking right behind you of how it was that all agnostic people were fantastically unattractive , would you roll your eyes a little?


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Bravo Humble Sceptic
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2014, 10:45:58 PM »
Rolling my eyes is not interrupting a meeting, is it?

I think it would seem to me that you were trying to pick a fight.

Being a peaceful person, I don't think I would say anything.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Bravo Humble Sceptic
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2014, 12:23:21 AM »
.......................

I think it would seem to me that you were trying to pick a fight.

.................

Yes, this might be what it seemed like to that young woman who spoke up.
And it might have seemed like this to the guy who felt motivated to apologize.

Did you watch the imbedded video?
That is really the best part.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Bravo Humble Sceptic
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2014, 10:56:59 AM »
I did, and he does make sense.  It is a waste of time to try to convince people that they are incapable of reason when they are incapable of reason. In such cases, it is best just to give up on trying. I do not think that most Christians are a threat to me, and I see no reason to be an evangelical agnostic. I see no reason to wear anti-Christian slogans on my clothes or my bumper. I only have a plastic thing that shows a fish holding a wrench with the message "evolve" which is more of a joke than a slogan.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Bravo Humble Sceptic
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2014, 01:17:01 PM »
  It is a waste of time to try to convince people that they are incapable of reason when they are incapable of reason.


Oh yes!

That part was hilarious.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Bravo Humble Sceptic
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2014, 05:15:19 PM »
Stupid people are unaware that they are stupid, because, well, they are stupid.

Ignorant people must realize that they are ignorant in order to learn what they need to know.

If people are properly indoctrinated as believers, patriots, fans or devotees, they generally are incapable of questioning their beliefs. There are very few people that are entirely open minded about everything. Nearly everyone is indoctrinated with at least some manner taboo or phobia.

 Those that can eat insects as readily as they eat hamburgers or have sex with goats as readily as with humans would fit this profile.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."