I didn't know Chicky and JS started the original forum!
BTW DebateGate is 5 years old as of April 2.
The History of PIC – The Journey
An Oral History
An introduction by chickencounter:
In September of 1996, I made my entrance in to the world of Yahoo chat. There were so many interesting rooms to choose from but the one that caught my eye andbecame my home was the Conspiracy Room. The so-called conspiracies of the day were the trial of Marv Albert and the guilt or innocence of O. J. Simpson. Clinton had not yet been busted for his White House hummers.
The chat rooms were small and debating was fun. And when we didn’t feel like debating there were
always discussions of food and drink. Recurring talk of chocolate mousse and cucumbers comes to
mind. When things were slow, we would follow each other in to some of the adjoining rooms...Abortion
and Mid East Crisis, or create a private room and get a little crazy. Some of us occasionally found our
way over to the trivia rooms. (Don’t tell anyone, but Jsov and I used to help each other out when we were
feeling a little devilish!)
Many of the people chatting in the early days can still be seen around today in the clubs and chat rooms.
Others are gone but not forgotten. Jsov, MissusDe and Btschmidt were there. Tiltstotheright (my favorite
Texan), Husky (the poet), Smectite (our resident dirt dabbler), Redheadedvixen (boy....the stories that
woman could tell!), Cunninglinguist (what a name!), Anders64, OverTheHill (not the infamous bill 1x1),
LeeinKC, Glenielle, Freshette, Trailertrashredneck, Regdab (the original Gawd), Clarity (our resident
lawyer), Janefinch, Shorashim, Owl and (crazy) Jacques were all there. The timeline blurs for me, but I am
told Knutegross, the good doctor Dralec, Bill 1x1, Lancelot, Ivysgirl, Mirstnkim, Crocat, GalfromMich,
Pops42, Mint60, Ritingfunny and Quechick were all visitors to the Conspiracy Room.
Monica Lewinsky confessed her sins and the Clinton Scandal Room was born. Yahoo chat experienced
many ups and downs. New chat rooms were created. Old chat rooms were deleted. When the
Conspiracy Room was deleted, we rallied around and badgered Yahoo in hopes they would bring it back.
But it wasn’t meant to be. Most of us hung out in CSR. Shorashim went outside of chat to create a club
called Crisis in the Mideast. Some of us joined up and we would use the club chat room.
Galfrom_mich: Chick, ah the history of chat and clubs. I always have to ask Jane when I started, but I did
miss the CSR days. All the names you mentioned brought back memories of the days when "I'm
weeping" was a common post from me, because I laughed so hard I cried. Some of those I haven't seen
in years, some I still chat with on a regular basis. The first club I joined was the Conspiracy cafe, when you
and JSov badgered me into it.
I was prompted to respond because I'm sitting here reading a card from a woman (from another
chatroom, long story) that I finally got to meet. In it, she talks about how her life has been enriched by
Internet friendships. I've met quite a few chatters in person, from all over the country, as well as one
famous Canuckian commie (who always sends the best prezzies and who I'm sure won't let me down this
Christmas.) I've learned a lot, changed a few opinions, had some fun times, but the best is the opportunity
to meet people I wouldn't have otherwise met.
Chat is rarely that much fun anymore, and this club is far too busy for me to keep up. But I sure will miss
the opportunity to check in here. When you move, please leave a forwarding address!
Janefinch: I started chatting in Yahoo in 1998 and I love old chatroom war stories...gee chick, some of
those names brought up memories! What I like the best is that some of those people have become my
friends and we all know each other and have continued to meet in cyber and real time and developed a
social network that is as real as anything in "real" life.
The great thing about the net is that it isn't frozen in time and space...so my experiences, and those of
people I started out chatting with such as chick, bt, jk, jill, missus etc etc, aren't the only stories to be told
here. So everyone, jump in.
xenorg_vii: I can remember we first got the internet at home in 1998 and I discovered Yahoo! clubs
while surfing around and having failed to make sense of newsgroups signed up to the biggest and best
politics club I could find, the conspiracy cafe.
Back in the day my views had been inflamed when I started to read The Guardian and The Independent,
the two serious left-wing papers in Britain. For those of you who remember (at the time my most ferocious
arguements were with crocat and dralec as I recall) my views on the good 'ole US of A made me seem
positively republican in todays light...the term "fascist americans" seems to come up often in my posts
After a while of this I seem to find my posts largely ignored (wonder why) and generally drifted in and out
of commie chat rooms were there were similarly naive youths as myself (I'm arrogant enough to presume
I've got over my 'righteous rebel' phase) could rant I got back to the Cafe and straightened my act out.
After that as they say; it's history, and now I sit here wasting away at college, sleeping through lectures,
engaging in casual sex (if only...) and posting happily.
_MissusDe: january 1997....that was the first time i saw what chat was. my sister (the Clarity, resident
lawyer mentioned by chicky) indoctrinated me...LOL!
she introduced me around and we had a lot of fun. sheesh. all those names, chick! that's a lot of
memories. i remember a guy who would come in and assume the persona of some South American
renegade army general and he would stage this elaborate story, play-acting his part and then we would
all jump in...the riots and civil unrest and storming the president's palace! such silliness.
i remember when yahoo changed chat formats, and there was a brief period over a couple of days when
you would log in and end up in the "old" chat or the new one - you never knew which...and going into the
old was kind of spooky. where there had been dozens of rooms, all filled to capacity, now only one or two
people would be there. you could just imagine people wandering around a deserted warehouse, bricks
and boards scattered around, and they'd be warming their hands over the fire built in an old oil
drum...LOL.
when the chat format was redesigned, the flavor of it changed. it took on a nasty edge that i personally
found very distasteful. so the decision was made to try out the club "scene", so to speak.
yep - that was a fun time!
chickencounter: In the words of my good friend, Jsov, the club format was so much more appealing for
intelligent conversation than chat...which as we all know was heading straight to the toilet at the time. He
approached me in early January of 1999 about founding our own club. Together we founded the
Conspiracy Cafe and Other Politics club. It was affectionately known as the Cafe or CC. We invited
everyone we knew from chat and the place began to grow.
One of Jsov’s first features in the club was to post a quote and ask us to guess who the author of the
quote was. My all time favorite was "A black man voting for the Republicans makes about as much sense
as a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders" by James Watts, Sr. (father of Representative JC Watts, R-OK).
Okay, so I am partial to chicken quotes but this one is great! From this little contest sprang my love for
searching out quotes and eventually The Quote of the Day.
The philosophy for running the Cafe was to allow complete freedom to all posters. In it’s lifetime, Jsov nor
I ever deleted a post or a member. Many people enjoyed the freedom but some took advantage.
Whenever debates got out of hand, a call for civility was made and the club philosophy was reposted as a
reminder. Usually this was enough to bring people to their senses.
_MissusDe: "Many people enjoyed the freedom but some took advantage."
gee. let's see....why did the name elio pop into my mind? isn't that where he first surfaced?
chickencounter: that is where he first surfaced and there were many discussions on whether or not he
should be deleted. that boy had some twisted views on women. and I don't think he would stand a chance
in this forum.
btschmidt: If i remember correctly he didn't last 4000 posts. He bragged about raping a woman and
getting away with it.
_MissusDe: seems to me he ended up in the first pool also
chickencounter: In the summer of 1999, shortly after the death of JFK, Jr. and the arrival of a naughty
poster named Harold, the open philosophy of the Cafe proved to be a problem. Jkstraw and GretchenLP,
among others, felt we were being too loose with the inmates so they jumped ship and founded their own
club, Politically Incorrect Politics.
There was a definite difference between the two clubs. The Cafe had polls, quizzes, articles and quotes
to go along with the debates. PIP was more chat like in their debating. Not that they weren't intelligent
debates, but the debates were filled with a lot of emotion. PIP never quite gained the membership volume
that the Cafe enjoyed but they were by far the most volatile politics club in Yahoo.
Over the course of it’s life, PIP had at it’s helm a host of passionate founders, Jkstraw, GretchenLP,
Blondie007, JayC28, Conserv00, Repubgirl and Btschmidt.
Having not always been a member of PIP, for various reasons...I hope that those of you that were active
members and founders of PIP could add your piece to this history.
richpo64: >> Not that they weren't intelligent debates, but the debates were filled with a lot of
emotion.<<
Interesting way to phrase it.
chickencounter: And how would you phrase it?
richpo64: A mosh pit of emotion where the rats of your conscience would eat the corn of your greed.
chickencounter: lol Rich....maybe YOU should have written this story!
richpo64: Perspective is reality.
chickencounter: >>>Having not always been a member of PIP, for various reasons...<<<
I did join PIP right after they formed, but quit shortly after when I read all the posts mocking Jsov and
myself and our lack of leadership in the Cafe. On several other occasions over the lifetime of PIP I joined
and quit again. PIP was way too busy and there was often a feel of being on the outside looking
in....sometimes I worry that new folks feel the same here.
JayC28: >> but quit shortly after when I read all the posts mocking Jsov and myself and our lack of
leadership in the Cafe.<<
Who was doing that?
It was so long ago I dont remember. Except to say that it was not me since I still didn't know everybody all
that well.
chickencounter: It was not you, Jay.
richpo64: Yeah chicky ... name names. :^>
chickencounter: It wasn't you either, Rich. :^P
_MissusDe: i understand that, chicky. it took me awhile to join PIP as well. I felt like an outsider - most of
the members/founders came from a group in chat that i didn't belong to. i felt better with you and jsov! lol.
eventually i did join and belonged to both clubs. i was without a computer for about six months (april 99 -
october 99)except at work. i am trying to remember when exactly i did join PIP - sometime during that
summer, i think. i remember trying to figure out all the new names and sort out "the players".
it wasn't easy....
richpo64: No, it wasn't easy. I think one of the best things this club does is hold a regular chat on
Wednesday night. It give members a chance to loosen up, and get to know each other better.
I wasn't kidding when I called PIP a mosh pit, by the way. It got wild at times, but hey, that's what kept me
coming back.
JayC28: One thing I remember about you Missus was when you asked that I post an entire New York
Times article because at the time you hadn't registered there yet.
_MissusDe: yeah...that's when i was still learning about registering on different sites - i thought i had to
pay!
_JSov: Excellent posts thus far chicky! Kind of makes you feel nostalgic doesn't it?
I too did not join PIP for a while after it was founded, for similar reasons. Some of the debate was
excellent, but there was a lot of emotion and "chat-like" posts.
JayC28: _Jsov, not much has changed....
jkstraw_01: >>Not much has changed.... <<
lol @ Jay..touche’
xenorg_vii: I'd like to hear more about how the founders got together in making the original Cafe. I seem
to remeber joining some 6 months in and by then there was already...what...6 founders? Did you all start it
together or did some of you join later?
chickencounter: xenorg, there were only two founders in the Cafe during it's life time....Jsov and myself.
jkstraw_01: Here's what happened. After JFK Jr's death, I, along with Jay, whom I met in the
"Democrats" club, of all places, Jill, Blondie and Gretch, decided to try our hand at forming a new political
forum based on the "anything" goes philosophy--Politically Incorrect Politics. I always thought it could be
possible to have "contentious," yet meaningful, debate. That a forum could "entertain" as well as inform.
And for a while....it worked pretty well. We "invented
a few new ideas that were unique to PIP...that others later copied--Wednesday night chat, and "Outrage
Friday," which was going well for a while, then kind of died down.
The debate was heated at times, inteligent at times, and "chatlike" and "childish" at other times. We
quickly became the most active political forum in Yahoo. Despite our often dysfunctional nature...people
seemed to like posting in PIP. We didn't have the membership that Conspiracy Cafe and other forums
hasd, but for a long time, our forum was typically much busier and active than clubs 4 times our size, with
people coming and going. Old friends, like Mint, Domer, Jane, Carlos, Crane, Gretch, Jill and many
others, were the "anchor" for the left, well Jay, Chuckcollins, BT, Conserv00, Repub held fort on the right.
Jay's importance to PIP needs some mention here: Were it not for Jay, PIP, and now, PIC would not have
existed. He held it together on the right...and like me, felt frustration several times enough to hit the old
"remove me from forum" button. But he came back and stuck with it, fortunately for all of us. He was PIP's
most active conservative, and maybe, PIP's most active member. I've NEVER known anyone, myself
included, to have such a passionate interest in politics. At the risk of "sucking up,"...lol....I really DO think
Jay was the backbone of PIP, and remains the "backbone" of this forum, to this day.
So...it was really a battle of "right" vs. "left," while Riting and others held the middle ground. There were
MANY others, and I'm sorry if I missed some of you. I can't possibly remember them all.
Fr a while....things were going very well. At one point, I forget which....we had reached about 350
Members....and things had kind of settled down. We were also aquiring the reputation for being "left
leaning," which was not surprising, since we probably were. Jay held his own, and then some. But there
were others on the right who represented themselves very well. We had occassional "discipline,"
probems, with Don, Knute ("Hi Knute"), and Bill 1X1, who got frustated with US, and formed HIS OWN,
forum.
I felt we were stagnating....and I noticed that Chick and JSov's forum was quieting down too....so Jay and I
started talking about the idea of merging the two forums into one and approached Chicky and J with the
idea...so that the founders could kind of rely on each other to make it work.
So...that's what we did. We merged "Conspirary Cafe," and "Politically Incorrect Politics," into one forum.
Some people protested. Knute was strongly opposed. I think Bill and Lance hated the idea. Domer was
vocally against it. But we went ahead and did it anyway, and a year + later....3,000 members...almost
200,000 posts.
It worked out, I think...although we've lost some really fun people to be around--Mint, Riting, Carlos. I hope
they see fit to make their way back to PIC. I'm speaking for myself...but I don't think the place has been
the same without them, and hope they see fit to get their collective asses back into the fold.
lanya47: jk, Riting is one of THE funniest, nicest chatters. Next time I see him in chat, I'll direct him to
your post and hope he stays.
btschmidt: Moves the bookcase away from the Riting Memorial Revolving Door in anticipation.
chickencounter: In mid March, 2000, Jkstraw approached Jsov and myself with the idea of merging the
Cafe and PIP. He felt that there were too many political clubs in Yahoo at the time and if we joined in
together we could really shake things up.
It took several weeks of discussion to come to an agreement. Jk was not willing to proceed with the
merger unless he could get all of the founders of PIP to buy in to it. Most were enthusiastic if not curious.
And in the end the lone hold out, Gretchen, gave her blessing and was made an honorary founder of PIC.
There were many discussions on how the new club should be run and what it should be named. Jsov
penned the infamous founder rules. Not everyone bought off on whether rules were even needed but in
the end we adopted them. Some of the nominations for club name were Cafe for the Politically Incorrect,
Cafe de Politically Incorrect, Cafe PIP and the Cafe for Non-PC Politics.
Before the actual merger, word got out that the two clubs would become one. There were many that felt
we were making a huge mistake. The dissenters were vocal both publicly and privately. Friendships were
strained and broken. Xenorg and Knutegross made pleas to take over foundership in the Cafe.
repubgirl: I wandered into the WW/CSR Yahoo chat rooms in July of 1998. At the time, I was working for
a Rep. in the Texas legislature and we weren't in session that year. I was bored out of my mind and the
chat rooms provided me with hours and hours of entertainment and a few ulcers during the dog and pony
show that was the Clinton Sex Scandal.
I followed the flock to PIP in 1999 and was flattered to be asked to be a founder in February 2000...filling
the female/conservative seat vacated by conserv00, I believe.
In that time, I've gotten married, held three jobs, purchased a home, turned 30, sat for the bar and
securities exams, started my own business and made a couple of really good friends. Personally, I think
it's kinda cool that I have more insight into how some of my "faceless" friends think than I do some folks I
see daily in "real life."
And just for the record...I've only used my delete button once!
jkstraw_01: >> Personally, I think it's kinda cool that I have more insight into how some of my
"faceless" friends think than I do some folks I see daily in "real life."
Ya...I think so too, Repub. It's been a good experience to have been involved. I've learned a few things
along the way. Politically, I've moderated my positions on some issues (Jay and Dhark, more than anyone
else, are probably at fault for that),become even more adamant in others. CNYMark too. BTW..I failed to
mention Mark in my previous post. A glaring omission. Mark was a big part of PIP as I recall.
Still..I can't help but think that even to this day, we tend to rehash the same kinds of issues over and over
again. I think it's just the nature of politics--there are "hot button" issues, and those are the issues that
tend to get the most attention. It's not good or bad...it just IS what it is.
Well, the future looks bright. We'll see where the "merger" takes us.
_MissusDe: jk... something has bugged me since i read this and i couldn't figure it out; i finally realized
what it was.
you said: "Here's what happened. After JFK Jr's death, I, along with Jay, whom I met in the "Democrats"
club, of all places, Jill, Blondie and Gretch, decided to try our hand at forming a new political forum based
on the "anything" goes philosophy--Politically Incorrect Politics."
but it wasn't JFK, Jr. - it was Robert's son who was killed in a skiing accident. and i remember chat at that
time, because that's the very first time i experienced it.
my sister was a chatter in the Conspiracy Cafe and knew _JSov, chicky, bt and many others. she
became ill with pneumonia - this would have been in dec 97- jan 98, and i went to take care of her and
clean her house and all. before i went home, she showed me what chat was, and the topic was RFK Jr's
death. i saw how the give and take of the conversation went, and as usual, there was a kind of morbid
humor going on...talk of "the snowy knoll" and who or what was responsible.
anyway...that will help clear the timeline up, if anyone was confusing that with JFK's death later.
CnyMark: I first was introduced to the clubs from a fellow morning chatter, Ms Crocat, who while not a
member of PIC any longer is alive and well in Spin Cycle.
I think the very first "pissin match" I got into was with Jay (what a shock) over, of all things, an aspect of
religion. I tend to think of myself as a slightly conservative leaning moderate (who is pro-choice and favors
some gun control- go figure) so there was plenty of fertile ground to have well mannered and not-so-well
mannered debates with people from both extremes and everything in between.
I also had the experience of being a founder in a "certain" other forum. I mention this for 2 reasons/ first,
PIC is a well balanced, extremely well ran forum. Despite the inevitable flare-ups, it has more substance
to its topics and members than any forum I've seen. Second, being a founder is v-e-r-y h-a-r-d, as in trying
to be even-handed even when someone is going out of their way to be disruptive, dishonest, or worse.
The present and past founders of PIC do a fine job.
I've also been lucky enough to forge a few friendships, while hopefully smoothing over some of the
"feathers" I've ruffled of those I disagreed with along the way.
I hope to continue to share thoughts and opinions with all of you, and for a long time to come.
repubgirl: A few things from the good old days we were reminiscing about last night:
The conservative hottub...when I was last there President Clinton was serving us gals canapes from a
dainty silver tray dressed in a Chippendales outfit as part of his punishment for his inappropriate
relationship.
The LLSC. UPPITY WOMEN UNITE!
Speaking of, if anyone still has a copy of the picture Gretch drew of the LLSC, please forward it to Missus
so she can archive it in the scrapbook.
The Washington Watch field trip to Bondage-A-Go-Go.
Two words. Sergeant Snorkle. I can see the headlines now, "Porn Discovered On Former Aide's
Computer."
_MissusDe: …although i could be wrong. maybe it WAS JFK Jr.
JayC28: It was JFK Jr.
There was some poster named Harold that took a LOT of shit when he basically said that JKF Jr. was not
deserving of all the accolades he was receiving.
I happen to think that many people seriously overreacted myself, but Harold was much more blunt about
it...lol.
_MissusDe: i remember that - but i could have sworn the club was around way before that.
goes to show you - growing old (er) sucks. LOL!
jkstraw_01: No, De...it was JFK Jr., as I said. I remember it as clear as a bell. It was after the plane
crash, and this guy "Harold," (Chicky had it right) came in, and was trashing JFK Jr. Well, needless to
say, I went ballistic. I mean, here was a guy who by all accounts, tried to live a reasonably private/normal
life..never PRETENDED to be anything more than he was....and this guy Harold was trashing him. Well....I
went off on him....and I recall that I was being "scolded" for being too harsh on Harlod. I mean..JFK Jr's
body was still in the Ocean..and this guy was basically trashing him. Maybe I overreaacted...but if I did,
the "overeaction" led to the creation of PIP, and, of course, in a roundabout way, the merger between PIP
and Cafe later on. So..hey...life works in strange and mysterious ways.
It didn't sit right with me, for the same reasons it doesn't sit right with other when people trash Reagan for
having Alzheimer, etc.
So I formed a new club. I wasn't RFK. That was earlier, as I recall...and I don't think I was even a member
of Cafe then.
_MissusDe: yeah...jay set me straight.
i guess so much has happened in these clubs, it's hard to believe it's only been within a short period of
time.
Café and PIP begat PIP, and PIP begat….
Conspiracy Café and Politically Incorrect Politics were individually, as well as in the combined form,
the inspiration for the formation of many other Yahoo Clubs. Over time, we saw the creation of
SpinCycle (and then SpinCycle II, courtesy of a Yahoo-based deletion); the founders were Richpo64
and later, Crocat. Other clubs include Politics From All Sides (JayC28); Letters From the Editor
(Bill1x1); Nightwatch (borru15 and outta_donuts); CafePIP Pub (btschmidt, MissusDe); Ivy’s Cantina
(ivysgirl); and the infamous Cesspool versions I, II, III, IV, V and VI (originally btschmidt and Missusde;
now all members are immediately foundered); Clinton Scandal Room (gretchen_lp, Anniesmomjill,
repubgirl, Mint_60, and mirstnkim); and two clubs formed when the last Cesspool was deleted under
mysterious circumstances: CesspoolUberAlles (theterrortheterror) and FreakInPIC (freak5646,
henny2010, JayC28, justhavinfun_now, and plumnyc).
The spin-offs haven’t been restricted to Yahoo Clubs. Jay created a “Politics From All Sides†website;
member contributors included Mencken who wrote an article on Social Security and Janefinch and
galfrom_mich who penned a column featuring their unsurpassable critique of various wines. The website
was slow to take off and Jay shelved the project. However, there seemed to be so much more that our
members had to offer, as we saw so often in posts in PIC. Members took the time to research topics in
order to debate them knowledgeably, and their dedication and willingness to share what they had
discovered did not go unnoticed by btschmidt. And thus, Post 41 was born.
The name Post 41 is derived from an annoyingly familiar Yahoo glitch, which has been experienced by
almost everyone. Clicking on a post in the message list, or on the home page, takes you not to that post,
but propels you into a time warp back to the very first page of messages, the ones numbered 1 – 41.
And very often, this discrepancy in post numbering caught the reader unaware and they replied to a
message that was well over a year old. The phenomenon has come to be known as the “Post 41 Bluesâ€.
Post 41 was designed to be a comprehensive news and information site with its content built around
major news links and also member contributions. These are featured in the “Post of the Week†and by
in-depth articles written by the members who are willing to share their own particular interests and
expertise.
JayC28 had another idea for a site up his sleeve, and The Daily Rant debuted in October of 2001. His
site contains a collection of short commentaries on the hot topics of the day, ranging from politics to pop
culture to sports – presented with Jay’s own brand of insight and humor.
Not to be outdone, Bill1x1 from the Letters to the Editor has offered up a website affiliated with his club,
featuring news and articles geared towards the liberal philosophy.
To be continued:
http://www.post41.com/members/history.htm
