Author Topic: Original Sin and Its Curse  (Read 3514 times)

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gipper

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Original Sin and Its Curse
« on: May 29, 2007, 08:47:45 PM »
Bush hasn't even come close to an adequate embrace of responsibility, let alone a necessary apology, for his wrong decision to invade Iraq and his woefully incompetent management of its aftermath. That might go a long way to reconciliation among the diverse factions with passionate views on the Iraq venture. But this is just prelude to my point, which is this: the initial taint, coupled of course with the politics of the times, including Bush's "installation," leave the Iraq venture an orphan in the view of so many, partly, I suggest, because the "original sin" of wrongful invasion and massive misfeasance, as viewed by a substantial portion of the population, has not been cleansed by a "baptism" of any sort, let alone one of a character commensurate with the subject matter. This leads irretrievably, it seems to me, to the alienation of so many from the war effort, whose bona fides and necessity are yet judged by the original sin and not by the merits of, for example, saving lives or promoting free democratic institutions, if those are realistically achievable. This configuration of circumstances and pressures leaves the electorate without an objective approach to the war, which leaves truly rational  discourse -- with fundamental national, global and Iraqi interests in the calculus -- a rarity and almost a taboo. Can something good come from the surge, from remaining in Iraq at all? Let's start there. Anyone? (My flirtation with the idea that it was "done deal certain" that nothing could prevent a virulent civil war has given way to a rethinking, and the kind of "paralysis of analysis" (the type of intellectual impasse) reflected in the Iraq Study Commission report.

BT

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Re: Original Sin and Its Curse
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2007, 11:05:21 PM »
You are correct about one thing.

The antiwar movement is more about Bush than the war.


Silly rabbits.



Michael Tee

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Re: Original Sin and Its Curse
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2007, 11:44:10 PM »
<<Can something good come from the surge, from remaining in Iraq at all? Let's start there. Anyone? >>

Well, as BT pointed out, they DID free 42 guys from an al Qaeda torture chamber.

The problem is, I don't trust them.  They're obviously there for no good reason. 

However, as long as they are there, hopefully they will kill off a lot of bad guys till it's time to come home.  I mean guys that are worse than the U.S. military, which, it appears, is not as impossible as it sounds.  Guys who publish manuals on how to remove eyes and torture people to death with blow-torches and electric drills.  Although I'm sure that a lot of these guys were organized by Negroponte, especially the Shi'ite death squads, still if a few thousand of any of these characters are killed off, this has to be a boon to humanity, and if the killing is done by United States Marines, well speaking practically now, who else would have done it if not them? 

So the good side probably is that a lot of psychopathic killers and torturers - - yours, theirs - - are getting killed off in Iraq, and that's a good thing.

Plane

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Re: Original Sin and Its Curse
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2007, 11:47:24 PM »
I can't accept the basic premise that nvadeing Iraq was a bad idea in any terms .

What was the better alternative?

Michael Tee

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Re: Original Sin and Its Curse
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2007, 11:59:07 PM »
<<I can't accept the basic premise that nvadeing Iraq was a bad idea in any terms .   What was the better alternative?>>

?  ?  ?  NOT to invade Iraq?  Observing international law, specifically Article IV of the Charter of the United Nations?

You sound like a guy doing life for the sex-slaying of a six-year-old girl who can't accept that his crime was a bad idea and now asks his accusers, "What was the better alternative?"  I guess another answer be, "What WOULDN'T have been a better alternative?"

This invasion was absolutely the worst foreign policy disaster in U.S. history.

BT

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Re: Original Sin and Its Curse
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2007, 12:01:39 AM »
Quote
This invasion was absolutely the worst foreign policy disaster in U.S. history.

And yet, cutting and running could be even worse. Go figure.

Plane

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Re: Original Sin and Its Curse
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2007, 12:04:21 AM »
<<I can't accept the basic premise that nvadeing Iraq was a bad idea in any terms .   What was the better alternative?>>

?  ?  ?  NOT to invade Iraq?  Observing international law, specifically Article IV of the Charter of the United Nations?

You sound like a guy doing life for the sex-slaying of a six-year-old girl who can't accept that his crime was a bad idea and now asks his accusers, "What was the better alternative?"  I guess another answer be, "What WOULDN'T have been a better alternative?"

This invasion was absolutely the worst foreign policy disaster in U.S. history.

If yur choice was to try to stop a sex slaying of a minor or mind your own business , the better alternative is indeed to interfere.
Perhaps the slayer will slay the child anyway , perhaps he will also slay you , but I would still even in tis case of failure make the case for attempting to prevent the crime.

Not invadeing Iraq was not a choice for peace , Iraq was not in peace , and had no potntial to find any with Saddam.

Not invadeing would be a lot like watching a killing of an innocent with our hands firmly placed in pocket.


The_Professor

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Re: Original Sin and Its Curse
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2007, 12:23:56 AM »
I can't accept the basic premise that nvadeing Iraq was a bad idea in any terms .

What was the better alternative?

Duh...leaving him ALONE as we do the hundreds of other despicable despots form nations as diverse as Ethiopia to North Korea.
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The_Professor

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Re: Original Sin and Its Curse
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2007, 12:26:14 AM »
<<I can't accept the basic premise that nvadeing Iraq was a bad idea in any terms .   What was the better alternative?>>

?  ?  ?  NOT to invade Iraq?  Observing international law, specifically Article IV of the Charter of the United Nations?

You sound like a guy doing life for the sex-slaying of a six-year-old girl who can't accept that his crime was a bad idea and now asks his accusers, "What was the better alternative?"  I guess another answer be, "What WOULDN'T have been a better alternative?"

This invasion was absolutely the worst foreign policy disaster in U.S. history.

Sometimes all you can do is pray from a distance. Is it really our purpose to go around and intervene everywhere there is evil in the world? I think not.

If yur choice was to try to stop a sex slaying of a minor or mind your own business , the better alternative is indeed to interfere.
Perhaps the slayer will slay the child anyway , perhaps he will also slay you , but I would still even in tis case of failure make the case for attempting to prevent the crime.

Not invadeing Iraq was not a choice for peace , Iraq was not in peace , and had no potntial to find any with Saddam.

Not invadeing would be a lot like watching a killing of an innocent with our hands firmly placed in pocket.


[/quote]
« Last Edit: May 30, 2007, 11:31:13 PM by The_Professor »
***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
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Plane

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Re: Original Sin and Its Curse
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2007, 12:28:53 AM »
I can't accept the basic premise that invading Iraq was a bad idea in any terms .

What was the better alternative?

Duh...leaving him ALONE as we do the hundreds of other despicable despots form nations as diverse as Ethiopia to North Korea.


We don't do that.

You want them all attacked at once?

There can't be hundreds of despots unless you are counting mayors and tribal chiefs.

Lets prioritize the despots , culling either the worst or the weakest first.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2007, 12:32:17 AM by Plane »

gipper

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Re: Original Sin and Its Curse
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2007, 03:41:24 PM »
Show me in international law or any generally accepted principle among nations, not to mention principles derived from our domestic life together, where, without a real threat commensurate with the military response, we can just choose despots to attack willy-nilly simply by waving a flag and exclaiming, "America first!"

Further, to add to BT's observations, leadership has its responsibilities and fuck-ups by leadership have their consequences.

_JS

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Re: Original Sin and Its Curse
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2007, 03:56:52 PM »
Quote
We don't do that.

You want them all attacked at once?

There can't be hundreds of despots unless you are counting mayors and tribal chiefs.

Lets prioritize the despots , culling either the worst or the weakest first.


Oh please Plane. Not only do we do that, we've installed some of the world's nastiest and most brutal regimes then funded or provided military aid to them!

We've sat by and watched horrible atrocities being committed. Surely you aren't suggesting that does not take place?

A good recent example is Darfur, where we only recently decided to impose stricter sanctions on Sudan. Will that end the immediate threat the people face?
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BT

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Re: Original Sin and Its Curse
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2007, 04:18:53 PM »
Quote
A good recent example is Darfur, where we only recently decided to impose stricter sanctions on Sudan. Will that end the immediate threat the people face?

How long has the UN been ignoring Darfur? And yet the US is the bad guy. I call bullshit!

Plane

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Re: Original Sin and Its Curse
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2007, 04:39:34 PM »
Show me in international law or any generally accepted principle among nations, not to mention principles derived from our domestic life together, where, without a real threat commensurate with the military response, we can just choose despots to attack willy-nilly simply by waving a flag and exclaiming, "America first!"

Further, to add to BT's observations, leadership has its responsibilities and fuck-ups by leadership have their consequences.

>principles derived from our domestic life together<


You are minding your own business when you hear a scream of agony , the screamng continues but begins to grow weaker .Finally the screaming stops , you continue to mind your own business ,content that you have done no harm.


>in international law or any generally accepted principle among nations<

There really is no such thing, if president Wilson had teamed up with the Kaiser , or if FDR had made peace with Hitler and the Japaneese it might have been good for trade and perhaps there would have been ver many Americans liveing out peacefull lives instead of being killed, there were a lot of pacifisists in that day taht gave that council and they could have pointed to the  peacefull result with pride had they had their way. But what law was broken by Wilson or FDR when they chose to fight? There really is no such thing.

 Saddam was in a state of seige resisting the coalition and poorly observeing a ceasefire that had streached over a decade. President Bush had the right as commander in cheif to call an end to the cease fire unilaterally and without any notce to any other party on the grounds that Saddam Hussein was not observeing the terms of the cease fire.

President Bush was true to his nature as a moderate in everything he does and included the entire government of the US and the United Nations to participate in the decision , practicly giveing them a chance to veto the decision in a manner far beyond any requirement .  Although many nations demurred to participate  the superflous permission was granted by the UN and a few nations chose to participate. The US Congress voted to proceed , athough the permision of the Congress had been earlyer given . President Bushseems to have a much greater sense of propriety than he really needs. When Saddam began to be anything less than fully co-operative with the terms of the cease fire he lost the right to its protection.

Plane

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Re: Original Sin and Its Curse
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2007, 04:43:41 PM »
Quote
We don't do that.

You want them all attacked at once?

There can't be hundreds of despots unless you are counting mayors and tribal chiefs.

Lets prioritize the despots , culling either the worst or the weakest first.


Oh please Plane. Not only do we do that, we've installed some of the world's nastiest and most brutal regimes then funded or provided military aid to them!

We've sat by and watched horrible atrocities being committed. Surely you aren't suggesting that does not take place?

A good recent example is Darfur, where we only recently decided to impose stricter sanctions on Sudan. Will that end the immediate threat the people face?

What did you think I ment by "that"?
We do not remain uninvolved , we were co-opertive with Pinochet we participated in the hunting down of Che Guarva . Darfur needs our attention, should we remain uninvoled?