Abortion patients

[Plane]

The problem is that Churches, such as your own, accepted birth control. Then people accepted birth control as a perfectly acceptable part of modern life. It was then that the foundation of any pro-life stance was destroyed. This has nothing to do with "welfare wings" and God's salvation. I'm not even sure where you've gotten that.

I am not getting it.

How does accepting birth controll nullify my objection to killing people?

Is smashing pots the same as not being a potter?

If you accept birth controll you can have no legetamate objection to being killed yourself?

[_JS]

The problem is that Churches, such as your own, accepted birth control. Then people accepted birth control as a perfectly acceptable part of modern life. It was then that the foundation of any pro-life stance was destroyed. This has nothing to do with "welfare wings" and God's salvation. I'm not even sure where you've gotten that.

I am not getting it.

How does accepting birth controll nullify my objection to killing people?

Is smashing pots the same as not being a potter?

If you accept birth controll you can have no legetamate objection to being killed yourself?

Humanae Vitae

I'd suggest reading the entire document, written in 1968.

Responsible men can become more deeply convinced of the truth of the doctrine laid down by the Church on this issue if they reflect on the consequences of methods and plans for artificial birth control. Let them first consider how easily this course of action could open wide the way for marital infidelity and a general lowering of moral standards. Not much experience is needed to be fully aware of human weakness and to understand that human beings—and especially the young, who are so exposed to temptation—need incentives to keep the moral law, and it is an evil thing to make it easy for them to break that law. Another effect that gives cause for alarm is that a man who grows accustomed to the use of contraceptive methods may forget the reverence due to a woman, and, disregarding her physical and emotional equilibrium, reduce her to being a mere instrument for the satisfaction of his own desires, no longer considering her as his partner whom he should surround with care and affection.

Finally, careful consideration should be given to the danger of this power passing into the hands of those public authorities who care little for the precepts of the moral law. Who will blame a government which in its attempt to resolve the problems affecting an entire country resorts to the same measures as are regarded as lawful by married people in the solution of a particular family difficulty? Who will prevent public authorities from favoring those contraceptive methods which they consider more effective? Should they regard this as necessary, they may even impose their use on everyone. It could well happen, therefore, that when people, either individually or in family or social life, experience the inherent difficulties of the divine law and are determined to avoid them, they may give into the hands of public authorities the power to intervene in the most personal and intimate responsibility of husband and wife.

The problem is that you gave away your moral authority. (Not to mention Biblical problems)

[kimba1]

     Re: Abortion patients
« Reply #28 on: Today at 04:00:47 PM »   

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Quote from: kimba1 on Today at 01:28:13 PM
true alot of pro-lifer are for birth-control,but the core goal is abstinence -only
getting rid abortion has never been the promary goal.


I beg to differ. And I'm sure I know more pro-lifers than you do.

As I said, the core issue for the pro-life crowd is elimination 



ooops didn`t get it all

what I mean is abortion is a tactic to rally people against birthcontrol.
abortion is just too radical a procedure to be universally accepted.
as you pointed out many prolifers are for birth control.
but thier voice is hardly heard and probly never will be.

[Amianthus]

what I mean is abortion is a tactic to rally people against birthcontrol.
abortion is just too radical a procedure to be universally accepted.
as you pointed out many prolifers are for birth control.
but thier voice is hardly heard and probly never will be.

I disagree with you totally.

[Plane]

The problem is that Churches, such as your own, accepted birth control. Then people accepted birth control as a perfectly acceptable part of modern life. It was then that the foundation of any pro-life stance was destroyed. This has nothing to do with "welfare wings" and God's salvation. I'm not even sure where you've gotten that.

I am not getting it.

How does accepting birth controll nullify my objection to killing people?

Is smashing pots the same as not being a potter?

If you accept birth controll you can have no legetamate objection to being killed yourself?

Humanae Vitae

I'd suggest reading the entire document, written in 1968.

Responsible men can become more deeply convinced of the truth of the doctrine laid down by the Church on this issue if they reflect on the consequences of methods and plans for artificial birth control. Let them first consider how easily this course of action could open wide the way for marital infidelity and a general lowering of moral standards. Not much experience is needed to be fully aware of human weakness and to understand that human beings—and especially the young, who are so exposed to temptation—need incentives to keep the moral law, and it is an evil thing to make it easy for them to break that law. Another effect that gives cause for alarm is that a man who grows accustomed to the use of contraceptive methods may forget the reverence due to a woman, and, disregarding her physical and emotional equilibrium, reduce her to being a mere instrument for the satisfaction of his own desires, no longer considering her as his partner whom he should surround with care and affection.

Finally, careful consideration should be given to the danger of this power passing into the hands of those public authorities who care little for the precepts of the moral law. Who will blame a government which in its attempt to resolve the problems affecting an entire country resorts to the same measures as are regarded as lawful by married people in the solution of a particular family difficulty? Who will prevent public authorities from favoring those contraceptive methods which they consider more effective? Should they regard this as necessary, they may even impose their use on everyone. It could well happen, therefore, that when people, either individually or in family or social life, experience the inherent difficulties of the divine law and are determined to avoid them, they may give into the hands of public authorities the power to intervene in the most personal and intimate responsibility of husband and wife.

The problem is that you gave away your moral authority. (Not to mention Biblical problems)

I am not bound by Papal opinions at all.

But I respect your right to live , and that I have no right to interfere with your right to go on liveing as long as my right to live is not endangered by you.

But if I accept your right to kill a person , have  I cut a loophole so that I can give up respect for life when convienient myself?

Preventing conception seems very different to me , even the Catholic approved methods of rythym and tracking ovolulation prevent conception, and there being no conception there is no person ever hurt.

[kimba1]

http://www.prolife.com/


I just typed prolife on google
picked what on top

and this site has from a fast skim not a single thing on birthcontrol
only the perils of abortion and pre-marital sex

I got no problem with folks who only go against abortion.
as i stated it`s a radical procedure to the extreme.
but it still looks like ahook for promoting abstinence only.

I`ve been to a few pro-life rallies.
every single one of them is against birthcontrol.

alot of the people maybe for birthcontrol,but the group as a whole is against it.

[kimba1]

hold it!!!

what church is ok with birthcontrol?

I`m baptist
I never heard of such things

I`ve heard individual members for it,but never a church

[Amianthus]

and this site has from a fast skim not a single thing on birthcontrol
only the perils of abortion and pre-marital sex

...

alot of the people maybe for birthcontrol,but the group as a whole is against it.

As I said, the defining cause of the pro-life movement is being against abortion as birth control.

And you found a site that is against abortion. What a shocker.

Tell me, did you find anything on the site against using birth control, which was your contention?

[kimba1]

I typed pro-life and birth control

and this resulted

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=pro-life+and+birth+control&btnG=Google+Search

as i stated abortion is a hook to get people rally around them
but the primary goal is abstinence -only( except maybe rythym method)

you asked if their anything against birthcontrol
several links says it harmful. and causes abortion

but true they don`t directly say anything against birthcontrol
guessing they`ll lose support.
but nothing say they do support it.

[Plane]

http://www.prolife.com/



alot of the people maybe for birthcontrol,but the group as a whole is against it.

I think you have mistaken a minority position for the majority position.

[Amianthus]

several links says it harmful. and causes abortion

The only 100% guaranteed form of birth control is abstinence. All other forms of birth control have failure rates. Stating this is merely being factual.

[gipper]

With a residual and abundant respect for my friend JS, in whose honor I will speak frankly, the unacceptability of standard means for birth control is a notion I must scoff at as being both bizarre AND immoral.

[kimba1]

but the failure rate is also not stated correctly
and many say it is totally in effective against aids(stating condoms)
something about mocroholes are 20x larger that the virus
never mentioning the virus are not able to enter those large holes
birthcontrol does lower your chance but doesn`t completely stops it.
will not be stated in pro-life

which brings another question is it a sin to use birth control lower your chances of pregnancy,but not to stop it?
ex. wearing condom with the intention of having kids ,but not right away

just to tweak the odds.

[sirs]

what I mean is abortion is a tactic to rally people against birthcontrol.  abortion is just too radical a procedure to be universally accepted.  as you pointed out many prolifers are for birth control.  but thier voice is hardly heard and probly never will be.

I disagree with you totally.

100% ditto

[Lanya]

hold it!!!

what church is ok with birthcontrol?

I`m baptist
I never heard of such things

I`ve heard individual members for it,but never a church

......................
Leadership in mainstream churches tended to be men educated in reputable institutions, and in the eyes those close to Billy Hargis many leaders of the mainstream churches were too influenced by the "pseudo-intellectualism" of the times. In the sixties, the Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Methodist and Baptist churches announced new positions. In 1960 the Episcopal Church approved artificial birth control, and that year the General Assembly of the Presbyterians (U.S. Southern) declared that sex between a husband and wife without intent of procreation was not sinful. In 1961, the National Council of Churches approved birth control and family planning. In 1963, the United Presbyterian Church General Assembly passed a resolution opposing compulsory prayer and devotion in public schools. In 1964 the Presbyterians ordained their first woman minister, Rachel Henderlite.
.................
http://www.fsmitha.com/h2/ch29.htm