The F.B.I. ordered to pay $101,750,000

[Universe Prince]

Were the commendations and bonuses for setting up the men?

How that matters, I don't know. They framed four men for murder, and rather being dismissed or even reprimanded, they got commendations and bonuses. I don't give a damn what else they might have done for the FBI. Agents who frame men for murder do not deserve commendations or bonuses or even their jobs as law enforcement agents.

Any chance you're finally willing to explain how framing people for murder and/or covering it up is law enforcement?

[BT]

How that matters, I don't know

I don't see the relevance of your complaint about commendations if it didn't concern the frameup.

Nor do i see the relevance of the judge mentioning it.

[Universe Prince]

I don't see the relevance of your complaint about commendations if it didn't concern the frameup.

Nor do i see the relevance of the judge mentioning it.

Three of the four wrongly incarcerated men were given a death sentence, the fourth was sentenced to life in prison. The three sentenced to death avoided that fate only by the fact that Massachusetts abolished the death penalty, thus reducing their sentences to life in prison. And you don't see the relevance of those agents getting commendations and bonuses from the FBI. Wow. What was that you were saying about not excusing the agents actions? You certainly seem okay with the FBI excusing them.

Perhaps you'd like to clarify your position. What is your opinion of what agents Rico and Condon did to Greco, Limone, Tameleo and Salvati? And what do you think should have happened to agents Rico and Condon as a result?

[BT]

What was that you were saying about not excusing the agents actions? You certainly seem okay with the FBI excusing them.

Unless you can link the commendations to the acts in question, i don't see where you can accuse the FBI of excusing them, nor do  i see where you can accuse me of excusing them.

What were the commendations for? Were they awarded by superiors knowledgeable of the framing and subsequent coverup?

[Universe Prince]

Okay, we've established that the agents superiors knew what they were doing. Read again Reply #9. And now we've seen (Reply #27) that the agents were given commendations and bonuses. Yet now you're asking if the agents were given commendations and bonuses by superiors who knew what the agents were doing. And you saying if the commendations and bonuses were not directly for the framing of four men then it isn't relevant. Do we have some evidence that the FBI leadership routinely hands out commendations and bonuses for agents they don't know or who don't work in their department?

Your argument that the commendations might not not have been given by superiors who knew what agents Rico and Condon were doing strikes me as ridiculous. And your suggestion that the commendations and bonuses are irrelevant if not given directly for framing Greco, Limone, Tameleo and Salvati for murder seems to me like grasping for straws. And if you're not excusing the agents, you look like you're trying to do so.

Which leads me back to the questions you ignored. What is your opinion of what agents Rico and Condon did to Greco, Limone, Tameleo and Salvati? And what do you think should have happened to agents Rico and Condon as a result?

[Plane]

   Reminds me of the "Untouchables".


If a leader tells a subordinate to get something done and "I don't care how , don't even tell me" is the marching order....

does plausible deniability protect the leadership?


The judge in this Case fined the FBI as an organization , what happens to the agents that might be guilty of a crime? What about the supervision and leadership that they should have had?

[Universe Prince]

what happens to the agents that might be guilty of a crime?

Might be? Anyway, Agent Harold Paul Rico eventually ended up in jail, indicted for murder in 2003, and he died while waiting for his trial. Dennis Condon is apparently still alive, but I am having difficulty finding out much else about him.

What about the supervision and leadership that they should have had?

Those people will never be punished. The $101,750,000 the government has been ordered to pay won't phase them in the least because they don't have to pay it.

[BT]

Your argument that the commendations might not not have been given by superiors who knew what agents Rico and Condon were doing strikes me as ridiculous.

No more ridiculous than your assertion that the commendations and wards were for the frame up. What's that? You didn't say that. Judging replies in this thread, that doesn't matter.

Which leads me back to the questions you ignored. What is your opinion of what agents Rico and Condon did to Greco, Limone, Tameleo and Salvati? And what do you think should have happened to agents Rico and Condon as a result?

Answered in post 12, 14 and by inclusion my statement regarding the statutes of limitations concerning wrongful prosecution which would cover Rico, Ciondon and the higher ups who knew about and helped cover up the frame up.

[Universe Prince]

No more ridiculous than your assertion that the commendations and wards were for the frame up.

As the facts have been presented, I can find nothing that suggests they were not. And of course, if they were not I don't care because Rico and Condon should gave been fired. They were not fired, their superiors at the FBI knew what happened, deliberately covered it up and for whatever reason Rico and Condon were given commendations and bonuses. Essentially, directly or indirectly, they were rewarded for framing people for murder. That is unacceptable to me. You appear to be okay with it.

What's that? You didn't say that. Judging replies in this thread, that doesn't matter.

You mean replies like you saying repeatedly that I'm damning people? Yeah, judging by replies like that I can see you're not real concerned with what people say. If you want to complain that I've ignored your words, you would do well to pay attention to mine.

Which leads me back to the questions you ignored. What is your opinion of what agents Rico and Condon did to Greco, Limone, Tameleo and Salvati? And what do you think should have happened to agents Rico and Condon as a result?

Answered in post 12, 14 and by inclusion my statement regarding the statutes of limitations concerning wrongful prosecution which would cover Rico, Ciondon and the higher ups who knew about and helped cover up the frame up.

Yes, I know you said the agents did wrong. But 'wrong' could mean a lot of things. I was hoping for more clarity. Was it only as wrong as say, jaywalking? Taking a bribe? Attempted murder? How wrong was it? Saying the agents were wrong isn't exactly a condemnation. But I'm glad to see you think someone should have been charged in this case, though your comment in that regard seems severely mitigated by your other comments in defense of the FBI. I guess I'd just like to see a little more outrage over what was done to Greco, Limone, Tameleo and Salvati, and a little less in the way of defense of the FBI. I'm not saying you have to agree with me about trusting or not the FBI. Four men were framed for murder, and your complaints are directed at me for daring to be critical of the FBI. Your focus seems misaligned.

[BT]

But I'm glad to see you think someone should have been charged in this case, though your comment in that regard seems severely mitigated by your other comments in defense of the FBI.

That is because i think that those responsible for the wrong and those who helped cover it up should be punished and not the group as a whole.

You seem to think the opposite. Apparently so does the judge.

Reminds me of when they would cancel the school field trip because Michael acted up in class.

[Universe Prince]

I don't recall having said the whole of the FBI should be punished. I don't recall reading where the judge said that either. But then, I think you're still trying to equate the agency with the total number of employees.

And I have to say, between your trying to "paint a bigger picture" and "they make real time life or death decisions in a world that is not black and white" and your suggestion that someone in the FBI who did not know Rico and Condon was handing them commendations and bonuses, and your vague or nonexistent replies to requests for your opinion or how wrong you think the actions were, you certainly appear to be attempting to downplay the actions of the agents and FBI. Yet you seem surprised that anyone would think so. Go figure.

[BT]

I don't recall having said the whole of the FBI should be punished. I don't recall reading where the judge said that either. But then, I think you're still trying to equate the agency with the total number of employees.

yeah that is why she penalized  the government. She was only going after the guilty parties. What is ironic is you as a taxpayer are being penalized too. Sucks to be blamed for stuff you don't do.

[Universe Prince]

I as a taxpayer am already penalized, with or without this case. The amount awarded in this case is a half of a drop in a bucket for the government, and I don't see it raising taxes just to cover this expense. So I as a taxpayer am not losing any more than what I already lose.

[BT]

Let's look at the case closely. Mafia kingpins were unjustly accused of a murder they did not commit.

The Federal Government was penalized for a crime they did not commit, individuals employed by the federal government did the deed and others covered it up.

Why the outrage at one case and not the other?

[Universe Prince]

Let's look at the case closely. Mafia kingpins were unjustly accused of a murder they did not commit.

Pooh yi. What happened to closely? Two or three of the men, as I recall, had ties to the Mafia, at least one did not, but none of them were kingpins.

The Federal Government was penalized for a crime they did not commit, individuals employed by the federal government did the deed and others covered it up.

Why the outrage at one case and not the other?

If the individuals had acted on their own, outside of their positions as employees of the FBI, I might buy your assertion. But they didn't, and I don't. They acted as official agents and representatives of the FBI, which is a part of the federal government. Yeah, I would like to see the individuals who were directly responsible punished (the ones still alive anyway) but we both know that is not going to happen.

You've spent time in the military, so you should be familiar with the idea that the officer is responsible for the actions of the men under his command. I don't see this as a whole lot different. The men who did the framing, the people who deliberately covered up the evidence, they all worked for the federal government. So fining the federal government is not something I see as a horrible offense.

On top of which, fining the federal government is not at all comparable to what happened to Limone, Salvati, Greco and Tamelo. Greco, Tameleo and Limone were given the death penalty. Let me say that again, since it seems to have been overlooked. Greco, Tameleo and Limone were given the death penalty. They ended up with sentences of life in prison only after the death penalty had been abolished in Massachusetts. Two of the men, Greco and Tamelo, did in fact die while in prison. And you want to know why the outrage at one case and not the other? I suggest that you try the "Let's look at the case closely" again, only this time actually look closely.