Author Topic: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey  (Read 6861 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2007, 06:12:43 PM »
<<And when this new theological territory is opened up, Western Muslims will be able to liberate themselves from defunct models of the world, rewrite the rules of interaction and perhaps we will discover that the concept of killing in the name of Islam is no more than an anachronism.>>

I think so.  They'll leave all the killing to Westerners who can do it in the name of "democracy."  That way the Jews can have all the land n the West Bank, the Americans and British can have all the oil in Iraq AND Iran, and the Muslims, bereft of both land AND oil, can assume their rightful place as the servants and water-carriers for those whom God truly meant to rule over them.  This makes a lot of sense:  stop all that killing.  Leave it to the Americans and the Israelis.  Submit.  Hey, isn't that what "Islam" means?  Submission?  So what are ya waiting for, dummies?  SUBMIT!

sirs

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2007, 06:14:54 PM »
LOL  Tee's next comedy set will be later tonight at 10.  3 drink minimum      :D
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2007, 06:28:15 PM »
Thanks, sirs, glad you could appreciate it.  I like to mix a little humour in with the sarcasm, makes it go down a little easier.

sirs

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2007, 06:58:50 PM »
Absolutely Tee.  It's always nostalgic to get a taste of some hyperbolic over-the-top 3 Stooges-like kinda humor
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

The_Professor

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2007, 07:39:55 PM »
It is OK Sirs. We know you'll never read it anyway. It probably doesn't have pictures or lots of cartoon drawings. ;)

Actually, you are mistaken. I read it this afternoon. Fascinating book in that it lets you in on more about living in Islamic countries. JS, you are always saying that Americans should learn more about these issues and yet you hammer those who do? Isn't that paradoxical?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2007, 07:48:16 PM by The_Professor »
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The_Professor

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2007, 07:44:29 PM »
Ahh, so lemme see if I get this straight.  Any and all direct commentary and 1st hand knowledge of radical Islam and its manifestations are simply "colorful, dramatic crap", while anything that references how evil and insidious Western Civilization is, led by messers the U.S. & Israel are in facilitating the radical & murderous behavior within the Muslim community is Gospel truth.

Just as long as I understand the parameters, of what we're reading       :-\

Sirs makes a good point in that the same parameters or criteria should be applied in both cases and I seriously wonder if it is.
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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
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sirs

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2007, 09:24:36 PM »
Thanks, Professor
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2007, 12:22:11 AM »
<<Sirs makes a good point in that the same parameters or criteria should be applied in both cases and I seriously wonder if it is.>>

sirs is full of shit because he really wants to see only one-sided criticism of the Muslim world and universal praise for America.  Example:  he bitches endlessly at any criticism I or anyone else will voice about America, but when I venture the same kind of criticism of the Iranian theocracy or the torture manual of al Qaeda in Iraq, he questions my sincerity.  He can't handle an even-handed approach because he's over-invested emotionally in America.  ANY criticism of America is "anti-American," irrational "hatred" or "America-bashing," although he is uniformly negative about all Muslims except those who agree to blindly follow the American-Zionist line and not make any waves.

sirs

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2007, 03:01:41 AM »
<<Sirs makes a good point in that the same parameters or criteria should be applied in both cases and I seriously wonder if it is.>>

sirs is full of shit because he really wants to see only one-sided criticism of the Muslim world and universal praise for America. 

Another perfect example of Tee's erroneous grasp of what sirs wants/thinks.  Let's count the ways    ;)


Example:  he bitches endlessly at any criticism I or anyone else will voice about America, but when I venture the same kind of criticism of the Iranian theocracy or the torture manual of al Qaeda in Iraq, he questions my sincerity. 

That's because you show ZILCH objectivy by doing precisely what you reference above, 24/7, minus any substantive criticism of Islamic militant terrorists.  You condem them ONLY when there happens to be a manual found, but only long enough to catch a breath and dive right back into how evil America is supposed to be, minus such manuals, and ignoring when abuses are discovered and then prosecuted.  Yea, i bitch at your endless meritless diatribes aimed at our "low hanging fruit", when the real enemy who actually targets women and children, to inflict max casualties pretty much gets a pass.  And anyone who actually has intimate understanding of the hateful ideology radical Islam is, is denounced as largely making things up, or not making enough up to warrant your interest.  You wouldn't know "even handed" if it was a swarm of killer bees, and you were covered in honey. 


He can't handle an even-handed approach because he's over-invested emotionally in America.  ANY criticism of America is "anti-American," irrational "hatred" or "America-bashing,"


Wrong again.  Any criticism of America based on lies, gross distortions, and hyperbolic accusations, minus any validity to them is "Anti-American", "iirational hatred", and "America bashing".  Criticism of America based on substantive arguements that have merit and credibility to them are in no way Anti-American, and more so someone excercising their 1st amendment rights to dissent.  BIG difference between Prince's criticisms of this Government and your foaming at the mouth irrational diatribes. 


although he is uniformly negative about all Muslims except those who agree to blindly follow the American-Zionist line and not make any waves.

Boy, you wanted to set a record for how wrong you can be in just 1 post.  I'm uniformly negative about all Muslim MILITANTS.  You know, the ones who want to kill in the name of Allah, who look forward to however many virgins they think is on the other side of their homicide bombing effort.  Unless you can show some quotable support to your accusation, I guess we can chalk that one up to yet another of your laundry list of lies
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2007, 03:24:35 AM »
<< you show ZILCH objectivy by doing precisely what you reference above, 24/7, minus any substantive criticism of Islamic militant terrorists.  You condem them ONLY when there happens to be a manual found . . . >>

This guy can't even keep his bullshit consistent from one sentence to the next.  First I'm "minus any substantive criticism of Islamic militant terrorists" but in the very next sentence he admits that I condemn them for torture.

<< . . .  and ignoring when abuses are discovered and then prosecuted.  >>

Actually, far from ignoring the prosecution of abuses, I demonstrate how they affect only scapegoats drawn from the lowest ranks, and draw minimal slap-on-the-wrist "punishments" for serious crimes.  To date, as I have pointed out, not one single death penalty.

<<Yea, i bitch at your endless meritless diatribes aimed at our "low hanging fruit",>>

Thank you for admitting it.

<< . . .  when the real enemy who actually targets women and children, to inflict max casualties pretty much gets a pass.>>

The "real enemy" who targets women and children and elderly, as in Falluja and elsewhere, is the U.S.A.

<<  And anyone who actually has intimate understanding of the hateful ideology radical Islam is, is denounced as largely making things up or not making enough up to warrant your interest. >>

In the case of the book we were discussing, which I actually read and you didn't, the author had minimal connection with the "hateful ideology of radical Islam" (which you, incidentally, know absolutely nothing about) and tried to parlay a very humdrum story into a sensationalist adventure, which it was not.


<<Any criticism of America based on lies, gross distortions, and hyperbolic accusations, minus any validity to them is "Anti-American", "iirational hatred", and "America bashing".  >>

Great.  My criticism of America is based on fact: the fact of an illegal war  in violation of the Charter of the United Nations; the fact of 100,000 or more dead Iraqis; the fact of torture in Abu Ghraib and elsewhere; the fact of illegal detention in inhuman conditions of prisoners of war; the fact of lying bastards claiming a threat that never existed even in their own minds.

<<Criticism of America based on substantive arguements that have merit and credibility to them are in no way Anti-American>>

Thank you.

<<BIG difference between Prince's criticisms of this Government and your foaming at the mouth irrational diatribes.>>

Yeah, Prince doesn't go nearly far enough in denouncing the bastards.


<<I'm uniformly negative about all Muslim MILITANTS.  You know, the ones who want to kill in the name of Allah, who look forward to however many virgins they think is on the other side of their homicide bombing effort. >>

Exactly.  If they wanted to kill in the name of God and George Bush, they would be fucking saints.

<< Unless you can show some quotable support to your accusation, I guess we can chalk that one up to yet another of your laundry list of lies>>

I thought you just admitted to all of my accusations in your own post here.

sirs

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2007, 03:34:51 AM »
See what I mean.  Squat objectivity.  1 reference to a torture manual, as if that's all it takes to offset the 99% rest of the time condemning the U.S for atrocities supposedly even worse than AlQeada, minus of course any evidence, outside of throwing out the term "Abu Graib", again as if that's all it takes to condemn the U.S. for AlQeada like torturing, minus of course the fact such abuses are prosecuted.  And even then, those prosecuted are apparently merely "scapegoats," because Tee just knows that the orders were comng from Rumsefeld, Cheney, Bush even.  Because, they're just that evil.  Priceless  And yea, your "criticisms" are pretty much gross distortions, hyperbolic opinions, and downright lies, so yea, they fall into the realm of Anti-American & irrational.  But at least you're proud of it, so you have that going for you
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2007, 03:39:15 AM »
".........the fact of an illegal war  in violation of the Charter of the United Nations...."


How so?

Didn't the UN have a chance to vote against it?

Michael Tee

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2007, 12:39:08 PM »
<<Didn't the UN have a chance to vote against it?>>

No.  The U.S. withdrew its draft resolution before it could be put to a vote to avoid the humiliation of a vote and a rejection by the UN Security Council.

Besides which, your question is ridiculous.  If the Crown Attorney charges that Joe Blow committed murder in violation of section n of the Criminal Code, your question is akin to asking, how could Joe Blow violate a section of the Criminal Code, didn't Parliament have a chance to vote against his crime?

Once the Charter is ratified by the members, as it was, it was the law.  A breach of the law is a breach of the law.  It does NOT require that the members of the law-making body thereafter vote to approve or reject the activities of a particular member, otherwise if each action had to be put to a vote, why would they bother to enact the general law in the form of the Charter?

As it happens, the US, in order to legitimize its crime, had PLANNED to put the thing to a UN vote, but pulled out at the last minute, KNOWING (despite all the pressure it had put on the other Security Council members) that it would be rejected.  This PROVES that they even knew it was probably illegal and yet they went ahead.

Michael Tee

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2007, 01:22:44 PM »
<<See what I mean.  Squat objectivity.  1 reference to a torture manual, as if that's all it takes to offset the 99% rest of the time condemning the U.S for atrocities supposedly even worse than AlQeada, minus of course any evidence, outside of throwing out the term "Abu Graib", again as if that's all it takes to condemn the U.S. for AlQeada like torturing, minus of course the fact such abuses are prosecuted.  And even then, those prosecuted are apparently merely "scapegoats," because Tee just knows that the orders were comng from Rumsefeld, Cheney, Bush even.  Because, they're just that evil.  Priceless  And yea, your "criticisms" are pretty much gross distortions, hyperbolic opinions, and downright lies, so yea, they fall into the realm of Anti-American & irrational.  But at least you're proud of it, so you have that going for you>>

Your problem is that you are unwilling or unable to live in the real world, so you have to fabricate facts wholesale on an ongoing basis to support your weird alternative reality world.

For starters, you claim I speak with zero objectivity, i.e. from a completely one-sided perspective.  Then when that lie is blown up in your face, you minimize the criticism I have levelled against the Muslims.  For example, here in this thread, though I referenced on a minute's notice (1) the al Qaeda in Iraq torture manual (2) the torture and murder of Canadian journalist Zahra Kazemi and (3) the torture and murder of Bahai women in Iranian jails, you acknowldege here {quoting your own exact words) " 1 reference to a torture manual, as if that's all it takes."  Clearly lying to give the impression that my criticism of the Muslim side was limited to one single instance.

More examples of your lying and bullshit from this very thread:  "minus of course any evidence, outside of throwing out the term "Abu Graib", again as if that's all it takes to condemn the U.S. for AlQeada like torturing . . . "  Of course there were many more instances of U.S. torture and higher responsibility, all of them referenced by me in our exchanges:  the Gonzalez memo, the hidden Abu Ghraib photos and videos, being roughly 90% of the total haul, Baghram Base, rendition to other countries such as Syria and Egypt and Jordan for "outsourced" torture, secret CIA torture chambers all over the world, the "President's" reservation to himself of the right to define what is torture, and the CIA involvement in the torture operations of both Shi'a and Sunni Resistance groups.  But in your lying bullshit view of things, I "throw out" the term "Abu Ghraib"  "as if that's all it takes."  Trying to bullshit everyone into believing that "Abu Ghraib" is the only fact I have to go on.  I also started a whole new thread on the tortures inflicted on Jose Padilla and that certainly was not in Abu Ghraib, it was right here in the U.S.A. in a North Carolina brig.  Torture has come to the mainland.

<<because Tee just knows that the orders were comng from Rumsefeld, Cheney, Bush even.  Because, they're just that evil.  Priceless >>

More fucking lies and bullshit.  (Honest to God, sirs, are you capable of posting anything else but?)  Tee surmises that the orders came down from the top because of the widespread pervasiveness of the incidents of torture, the similarity of many of the torture techniques, the Gonzales torture memo rationalizing the use of torture (actually written by John Koo) , the lack of any prosecution of senior officers, the minimal slap-on-the-wrist nature of the penalties handed out and the low-ranking status of all the victims of these show trials.  Certainly the reasons I gave for my opinions were well known to you.  In other posts you derisively refer to them as "Tee-leaf reading" and that's OK - - nobody says you have to agree with them.  But here you are just plain lying - - although you know WHY I believe what I believe, you try to convince others with your lies and bullshit that I "know" the orders came down from the top "because they are . . . evil."  This is really why nobody can take you seriously.  You just make up stuff as it suits you, even when it's obvious that you yourself know that it's fake.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that you are not even a very good liar.

<<And yea, your "criticisms" are pretty much gross distortions . .  .>>

Every one of them is fact-based, and other than simply denying the fact or fact I based it on, you have never been able to disprove even one fact on which my criticism was based.

<< . . .  hyperbolic opinions>>

guilty as charged on some occasions, my Lord.  George Bush is not really a chimp but a human being.  The U.S. military are not Neanderthals, they are just low-hanging fruit, high school dropouts and general dead-enders.  Nothing wrong with a little hyperbole to make a point, especially when the other side is drowning in its own hyperbole.

<< . . .  and downright lies>>

Still waiting for even one to be exposed, sirs.  Since I've exposed at least three of yours in just this very post, and probably dozens more in other posts, I'm still waiting for you to point out just ONE lie of mine.

<< so yea, they fall into the realm of Anti-American>>

I think we've been through this before.  To be anti-militarist and anti-fascist is NOT to be anti-American, except in the eyes of American militarists and fascists for whom America is or should be both fascist and militaristic.  Militarism and fascism are anathema to the spirit of the Constitution of the U.S.A. and are profoundly UN-American.  You and the people you resemble and/or represent are the greatest threat to America that it will ever face.  Much bigger than the much-hyped (by your ilk) "threat" of Islam, which has no hope in hell of destroying America.  I fear that Lanya and other wonderful folks like her are fighting a valiant but losing battle and America is fucked, not by Muslims but by YOU.  Liars and bullshit artists to the core, people constitutionally unable to tell the truth if it goes against their politics.  To oppose you and people like you and everything you stand for is to defend the highest ideals of America including the Constitution and the rule of law.

<< . . . & irrational. >>

I forgot that I was dealing with someone who writes his own dictionary, someone for whom "all" does not mean "all," "victim" does not mean "victim" and apparently "irrational" must mean "cogent, factual and compelling."  WHATever.

sirs

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2007, 01:46:39 PM »
<<See what I mean.  Squat objectivity.  1 reference to a torture manual, as if that's all it takes to offset the 99% rest of the time condemning the U.S for atrocities supposedly even worse than AlQeada, minus of course any evidence, outside of throwing out the term "Abu Graib", again as if that's all it takes to condemn the U.S. for AlQeada like torturing, minus of course the fact such abuses are prosecuted.  And even then, those prosecuted are apparently merely "scapegoats," because Tee just knows that the orders were comng from Rumsefeld, Cheney, Bush even.  Because, they're just that evil.  Priceless  And yea, your "criticisms" are pretty much gross distortions, hyperbolic opinions, and downright lies, so yea, they fall into the realm of Anti-American & irrational.  But at least you're proud of it, so you have that going for you>>

Your problem is that you are unwilling or unable to live in the real world, so you have to fabricate facts wholesale on an ongoing basis to support your weird alternative reality world.  For starters, you claim I speak with zero objectivity, i.e. from a completely one-sided perspective. 

More of that projection phenomenon I see.  So you'll demonstrate for us where you've presented postive contributions by our military, right?  By this administration on the war against terror, right?  And no, citing "Well, they only killed X amount when they probably wanted to kill XX amount", doesn't suffice.  1 reference to 1 manual doesn't suffice either.  So, show us this "objectivity" with an even handed approach.  don't worry, I'm not going to hold my breath. 


More examples of your lying and bullshit from this very thread:  "minus of course any evidence, outside of throwing out the term "Abu Graib", again as if that's all it takes to condemn the U.S. for AlQeada like torturing . . . "  Of course there were many more instances of U.S. torture and higher responsibility, all of them referenced by me in our exchanges:  the Gonzalez memo, the hidden Abu Ghraib photos and videos, being roughly 90% of the total haul, Baghram Base, rendition to other countries such as Syria and Egypt and Jordan for "outsourced" torture, secret CIA torture chambers all over the world, the "President's" reservation to himself of the right to define what is torture, and the CIA involvement in the torture operations of both Shi'a and Sunni Resistance groups.  But in your lying bullshit view of things, I "throw out" the term "Abu Ghraib"  "as if that's all it takes."  Trying to bullshit everyone into believing that "Abu Ghraib" is the only fact I have to go on.  I also started a whole new thread on the tortures inflicted on Jose Padilla and that certainly was not in Abu Ghraib, it was right here in the U.S.A. in a North Carolina brig.  Torture has come to the mainland.

So, your "examples" continue to be your own twisted conclusions, inferred by defendents' attorneys, hidden, prosecuted, or performed by other countries, when that's been going on for a while now.  Gotta love it.  Yes, chalk full of "objectivty"


<<because Tee just knows that the orders were comng from Rumsefeld, Cheney, Bush even.  Because, they're just that evil.  Priceless >>

More fucking lies and bullshit.  Tee surmises that the orders came down from the top because of the widespread pervasiveness of the incidents of torture, the similarity of many of the torture techniques, the Gonzales torture memo rationalizing the use of torture (actually written by John Koo) , the lack of any prosecution of senior officers, the minimal slap-on-the-wrist nature of the penalties handed out and the low-ranking status of all the victims of these show trials.

LOL, see?  Unless it's messers Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush, and other higher ups doing the perp walk, then any and all others prosecuted are just slaps on the wrist and skapegoats, because....well because Tee just knows.  It just can't be those invloved doing the crimes as the criminals.  They're just low hanging fruit, unable to tie their shoes unless they're ordered to by Rumsfeld.  Frellin priceless    8)


<<And yea, your "criticisms" are pretty much gross distortions . .  .>>

Every one of them is fact-based, and .......

ROFL.  Give me a minute to catch my breath from that one.


other than simply denying the fact or fact I based it on, you have never been able to disprove even one fact on which my criticism was based.

Been there, done that.....adnauseum.  Your refusal to accept facts to the contrary of your already made up mind of how evil Bush and our American military is supposed to be, isn't my problem.


Still waiting for even one to be exposed, sirs.  

Been there, done that too.  Bush lying us into war, Bush stealing the election, American military a group of low hanging fruit, just egging to rape at a moment's notice, Widepread torture at the hands of our military with the commands for such coming practically from the WH.  All those lies, and then some, exposed to their utter core for what they are, irrational, hyperbolic, and most often, bald faced lies, since so many facts to the contrary have dispelled them.  But be proud of your consistency.  That's a hallmark we've all grown comfortable with.........and which also makes debunking them, so much the easier





"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle