Author Topic: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey  (Read 6875 times)

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The_Professor

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Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« on: August 17, 2007, 12:03:44 PM »
Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey

Story Highlights
Man says he became radical Muslim during college a decade ago

"Ideas that I once thought unthinkable ... seemed like good ideas to me"
Oregon group he worked for has since been shut down by the government
Organization maintains it's a charity, seeks to have name cleared


Daveed Gartenstein-Ross was born to Jewish parents in Ashland, Oregon. A college friend introduced him to Islam.

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The path to faith often takes unexpected twists. In the case of Daveed Gartenstein-Ross, the road went through three of the world's major religions -- Judaism, Islam and Christianity -- and ultimately brought him to the FBI.

Born to Jewish parents who call themselves mystics, he grew up in what he calls the "liberal hippie Mecca" of Ashland, Oregon, a town of about 20,000 near the California border. It was in this ultraliberal intellectual environment that a young Gartenstein-Ross experimented with a radical form of Islam that eventually led him to shun music, reject women's rights and even refuse to touch dogs because he believed this was "according to God's will."

"I began to pray for the mujahedeen, for these stateless warriors who were trying to topple secular governments," he said.

His journey began in 1997, when as a junior at Wake Forest University, he began to examine his own spiritual identity after experiencing a couple of brushes with death caused by illness. "That kind of thing can cause spiritual discomfort and make you reevaluate what it is that you're living for," he told CNN in an upcoming documentary called "God's Warriors."  Watch behind-the-scenes with CNN's Amanpour for the making of the TV special ?

A college friend introduced him to Islam and he was intrigued by its peaceful message. "Islam was a very simple faith and as I learned more and more about it, it seemed more and more fascinating to me," he said.

That fall, he called home to tell his parents he was planning to become a Muslim.

"We felt it was OK," his father Moshe Ross said. "We were glad that he was going to study something and hopefully seriously. And we were happy with Islam."

When Gartenstein-Ross returned to Ashland, he got his first taste of radicalization when an imam at a local makeshift mosque blasted Western society.

"His argument was that the West was so inherently corrupt, so inherently anti-Islamic, that if we stayed in this society, then inevitably our faith would be eroded," said Gartenstein-Ross, who chronicled his experience in a book called "My Year Inside Radical Islam."

The humble mosque would soon move to a hilltop headquarters in Ashland, thanks to financial support from a Saudi Arabian charity known as the Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation, which has since been shut down by U.S. and Saudi authorities for alleged terror ties. Lawyers for Al-Haramain have denied those charges and have filed suit against the U.S. government seeking to have its name cleared.

Gartenstein-Ross said a man named Pete Seda, who ran the charity's local office, offered him a job. Seda became his mentor and within a few months Gartenstein-Ross said he found himself agreeing with extreme views. At Al-Haramain, he said he saw the religion which he had embraced for its tolerance become obsessed with rules and ideology.

"What I didn't expect was that over time my ideas would fall into line with theirs," he said. "I wasn't to shake hands with women. I wasn't to pet a dog. I wasn't to wear shorts that came up above my knees. But conversely, my pants legs couldn't be too long."

But at times, he still had doubts about some beliefs espoused at the mosque. Whenever he questioned the rules, his co-workers would tell him his own views were irrelevant. The view was that "your moral inclinations do not matter. All that matters is whether this is what's right according to God's will," said Gartenstein-Ross.

In 1999 he left his job at Al-Haramain for law school at New York University. Away from his co-workers, he was free to question the radical doctrines he'd learned in Oregon and meet with others about spirituality, including Christians. A year later, he converted to Christianity and was eventually baptized in the Baptist church.

It was a decision he took extremely seriously because he said his colleagues at Al-Haramain had preached that leaving Islam was punishable by death.

"This conversion out of Islam toward Christianity was certainly not one I took lightly in any way, because I realized there could be repercussions from it," he said.

The Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation would come up in his life again, but in a very different fashion. His first job after law school was as a clerk with the U.S. Court of Appeals in the District of Columbia. He had to undergo a background check and listed Al-Haramain as a previous employer. Soon, the FBI was quizzing him about the group.

Two years later, in 2004, federal agents raided the Ashland offices of Al-Haramain. When he learned of the bust, Gartenstein-Ross says he contacted the FBI. "I knew about some of Al-Haramain's contempt for U.S. tax law. I knew about the support these guys had for the mujahedeen in Chechnya," he said.

His mentor, Pete Seda, and another top Al-Haramain official now face conspiracy and tax fraud charges for allegedly helping provide $150,000 in funds meant for Muslim fighters in Chechnya. Lawyers for the group say it renounces terrorism, and in a lawsuit filed against the government last week, Al-Haramain says it's a "charitable organization that seeks to promote greater understanding of the Islamic religion."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/15/daveed.godswarriors/index.html
***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

Michael Tee

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2007, 12:25:13 PM »
I actually bought and read the book and I feel like asking for my money back.  The whole book went by and absolutely nothing happened.  In his adventures in Islam, he came to know peripherally some guy who was a bagman for radical Islamists.  How you can make a book out of that is more a tribute to marketing than to investigative journalism or literature. 

sirs

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2007, 02:29:59 PM »
I actually bought and read the book and I feel like asking for my money back.  The whole book went by and absolutely nothing happened.  ...

But of course, radical Islam is something to embrace, and anyways there apparently weren't enough stories of how they were killing those infidel Americans
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2007, 03:07:27 PM »
It is OK Sirs. We know you'll never read it anyway. It probably doesn't have pictures or lots of cartoon drawings. ;)
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2007, 03:30:15 PM »
And apparently not enough stories involving the killing of Americans and its soldiers.  I guess I'll stick with Harry Potter         8)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- another man's journey
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2007, 03:49:50 PM »
I was a fanatic...I know their thinking, says former radical Islamist

By HASSAN BUTT

When I was still a member of what is probably best termed the British Jihadi Network - a series of British Muslim terrorist groups linked by a single ideology - I remember how we used to laugh in celebration whenever people on TV proclaimed that the sole cause for Islamic acts of terror like 9/11, the Madrid bombings and 7/7 was Western foreign policy.

By blaming the Government for our actions, those who pushed this "Blair's bombs" line did our propaganda work for us. 

More important, they also helped to draw away any critical examination from the real engine of our violence: Islamic theology.

The attempts to cause mass destruction in London and Glasgow are so reminiscent of other recent British Islamic extremist plots that they are likely to have been carried out by my former peers.

And as with previous terror attacks, people are again saying that violence carried out by Muslims is all to do with foreign policy.

For example, on Saturday on Radio 4's Today programme, the Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, said: "What all our intelligence shows about the opinions of disaffected young Muslims is the main driving force is not Afghanistan, it is mainly Iraq."

I left the British Jihadi Network in February 2006 because I realised that its members had simply become mindless killers. But if I were still fighting for their cause, I'd be laughing once again.

Mohammad Sidique Khan, the leader of the July 7 bombings, and I were both part of the network - I met him on two occasions.

And though many British extremists are angered by the deaths of fellow Muslim across the world, what drove me and many others to plot acts of extreme terror within Britain and abroad was a sense that we were fighting for the creation of a revolutionary worldwide Islamic state that would dispense Islamic justice.

If we were interested in justice, you may ask, how did this continuing violence come to be the means of promoting such a (flawed) Utopian goal?

How do Islamic radicals justify such terror in the name of their religion?

There isn't enough room to outline everything here, but the foundation of extremist reasoning rests upon a model of the world in which you are either a believer or an infidel.

Formal Islamic theology, unlike Christian theology, does not allow for the separation of state and religion: they are considered to be one and the same.

For centuries, the reasoning of Islamic jurists has set down rules of interaction between Dar ul-Islam (the Land of Islam) and Dar ul-Kufr (the Land of Unbelief) to cover almost every matter of trade, peace and war.

But what radicals and extremists do is to take this two steps further.
- Their first step has been to argue that, since there is no pure Islamic state, the whole world must be Dar ul-Kufr (The Land of Unbelief).

- Step two: since Islam must declare war on unbelief, they have declared war upon the whole world.

Along with many of my former peers, I was taught by Pakistani and British radical preachers that this reclassification of the globe as a Land of War (Dar ul-Harb) allows any Muslim to destroy the sanctity of the five rights that every human is granted under Islam: life, wealth, land, mind and belief.

In Dar ul-Harb, anything goes, including the treachery and cowardice of attacking civilians.

The notion of a global battlefield has been a source of friction for Muslims living in Britain.

For decades, radicals have been exploiting the tensions between Islamic theology and the modern secular state - typically by starting debate with the question: "Are you British or Muslim?"

But the main reason why radicals have managed to increase their following is because most Muslim institutions in Britain just don't want to talk about theology.

They refuse to broach the difficult and often complex truth that Islam can be interpreted as condoning violence against the unbeliever - and instead repeat the mantra that Islam is peace and hope that all of this debate will go away.

This has left the territory open for radicals to claim as their own. I should know because, as a former extremist recruiter, I repeatedly came across those who had tried to raise these issues with mosque authorities only to be banned from their grounds.

Every time this happened it felt like a moral and religious victory for us because it served as a recruiting sergeant for extremism.

Outside Britain, there are those who try to reverse this two-step revisionism.

A handful of scholars from the Middle East have tried to put radicalism back in the box by saying that the rules of war devised so long ago by Islamic jurists were always conceived with the existence of an Islamic state in mind, a state which would supposedly regulate jihad in a responsible Islamic fashion.

In other words, individual Muslims don't have the authority to go around declaring global war in the name of Islam.

But there is a more fundamental reasoning that has struck me as a far more potent argument because it involves recognising the reality of the world: Muslims don't actually live in the bipolar world of the Middle Ages any more.

The fact is that Muslims in Britain are citizens of this country. We are no longer migrants in a Land of Unbelief.

For my generation, we were born here, raised here, schooled here, we work here and we'll stay here.

But more than that, on a historically unprecedented scale, Muslims in Britain have been allowed to assert their religious identity through clothing, the construction of mosques, the building of cemeteries and equal rights in law.

However, it isn't enough for responsible Muslims to say that, because they feel at home in Britain, they can simply ignore those passages of the Koran which instruct on killing unbelievers.

Because so many in the Muslim community refuse to challenge centuries-old theological arguments, the tensions between Islamic theology and the modern world grow larger every day.

I believe that the issue of terrorism can be easily demystified if Muslims and non-Muslims start openly to discuss the ideas that fuel terrorism.

Crucially, the Muslim community in Britain must slap itself awake from its state of denial and realise there is no shame in admitting the extremism within our families, communities and worldwide co-religionists.

If our country is going to take on radicals and violent extremists, Muslim scholars must go back to the books and come forward with a refashioned set of rules and a revised understanding of the rights and responsibilities of Muslims whose homes and souls are firmly planted in what I'd like to term the Land of Co-existence.

And when this new theological territory is opened up, Western Muslims will be able to liberate themselves from defunct models of the world, rewrite the rules of interaction and perhaps we will discover that the concept of killing in the name of Islam is no more than an anachronism.


Article
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Henny

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2007, 03:51:55 PM »
I should write a book about living in the Islamic world and marrying into a Muslim family. I can invent a bunch of colorful, dramatic crap to make it more appealing for sensationalists and Neocons to read. God knows it would be too boring for people to accept that most of them are just human beings trying to live their life - go to work, come home, go to work, come home, go buy groceries, have a weekend, go to work...  :D

sirs

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2007, 04:00:29 PM »
Ahh, so lemme see if I get this straight.  Any and all direct commentary and 1st hand knowledge of radical Islam and its manifestations are simply "colorful, dramatic crap", while anything that references how evil and insidious Western Civilization is, led by messers the U.S. & Israel are in facilitating the radical & murderous behavior within the Muslim community is Gospel truth.

Just as long as I understand the parameters, of what we're reading       :-\
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Henny

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2007, 04:09:40 PM »
Sirs, you're getting really good at reading messages within messages that aren't really there.

Ahh, so lemme see if I get this straight.  Any and all direct commentary and 1st hand knowledge of radical Islam and its manifestations are simply "colorful, dramatic crap", while anything that references how evil and insidious Western Civilization is, led by messers the U.S. & Israel are in facilitating the radical & murderous behavior within the Muslim community is Gospel truth.

Just as long as I understand the parameters, of what we're reading       :-\

sirs

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2007, 04:36:08 PM »
Well Miss Henny, with all due respec, how is one supposed to read "I can invent a bunch of colorful, dramatic crap to make it more appealing for sensationalists and Neocons to read." following the articles that the Professor & I posted??  What "message" would you be attempting to convey, outside of what appeared to be the obvious??
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Henny

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2007, 04:42:26 PM »
Well Miss Henny, with all due respec, how is one supposed to read "I can invent a bunch of colorful, dramatic crap to make it more appealing for sensationalists and Neocons to read." following the articles that the Professor & I posted??  What "message" would you be attempting to convey, outside of what appeared to be the obvious??

Perhaps you're right - I didn't clarify my thought.

Many people like books about Islamic life - reading about things they've never been exposed to. Since there is a market for books on the topic of Islam - be it terrorism or just life - I could write a book about my experience. But my experience is just so non-dramatic on the scale measured by the books that are popular these days, I would have to "invent a bunch of colorful dramatic crap" to make it interesting for the people who tend to buy books in that market.

However, I didn't not mean that "any and all direct commentary and 1st hand knowledge of radical Islam and its manisfestations are "colorful, dramatic crap."

Better?

sirs

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2007, 04:51:50 PM »
Much.  And you're right, simply living life isn't going to facilitate book sales.  Why do you think there's so much hubaloo just prior to the next political "tell-all" book from the latest politician or cabinet member.  If you're goal is to sell as many books as possible, you have to hype it up.  If the goal is to simply tell your story, then what generates book sales is where your story is taking place....home, making great Islamic meals, or as a previous member within radical Islam. 

Does one mandate over the other, a making up of a bunch of colorful dramatic crap??  And you know/assume it's made up because.......?  It couldn't simply be accurate 1st hand knowledge? 
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Richpo64

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2007, 04:55:09 PM »
>>Ahh, so lemme see if I get this straight.  Any and all direct commentary and 1st hand knowledge of radical Islam and its manifestations are simply "colorful, dramatic crap", while anything that references how evil and insidious Western Civilization is, led by messers the U.S. & Israel are in facilitating the radical & murderous behavior within the Muslim community is Gospel truth.<<

Bingo.

Michael Tee

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2007, 05:46:21 PM »
Don't worry, sirs and Rich, when Osama publishes his memoirs there'll be lots of stories about killing Americans for you guys to get off on.  Lots of drama and violence.  Lots of PROOF that hey these guys really do kill people.

Not that you guys will read it anyway because (1) it's way beyond your Grade 2 reading skills and (2) it'll probably explain WHY these guys are so pissed off at America and Israel.

sirs

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Re: Rejecting radical Islam -- one man's journey
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2007, 05:52:28 PM »
Don't worry, sirs and Rich, when Osama publishes his memoirs there'll be lots of stories about killing Americans for you guys to get off on. 

That's funny, I could have sworn it was the likes of you getting off on how much ball they have, how "heroic" they are, and in how many american soldiers they can kill.  You must be talking to yourself, I can only assume.  Personally, I"ll "gett off" on how many terrorists we can kill, not to be confused with those accidentally killed in war.  The latter clarification is necessary when dealing with Tee's twisted grasp of reality and belief of what folks like myself & Rich supposedly think & believe


"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle