Author Topic: What we have to fear from ID cards  (Read 5480 times)

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Lanya

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What we have to fear from ID cards
« on: January 02, 2008, 04:19:41 PM »
   

We have everything to fear from ID cards

By Andrew O'Hagan
Last Updated: 12:01am GMT 01/01/2008

 We start the year in Britain with a challenge to our essential nature, for 2008 might turn out to be the year when we decide to rip up the Magna Carta.

Among the basic civil rights in this country, there has always been, at least in theory, an inclination towards liberal democracy, which includes a tolerance of an individual's right to privacy.

We are born free and have the right to decide what freedom means, each for ourselves, and to have control over our outward existence, yet that will no longer be the case if we agree to identity cards.

Britain is already the most self-watching country in the world, with the largest network of security cameras; a new study suggests we are now every bit as poor at protecting privacy as Russia, China and America.

But surveillance cameras and lost data will prove minuscule problems next to ID cards, which will obliterate the fundamental right to walk around in society as an unknown.

Some of you may have taken that freedom so much for granted that you forget how basic and important it is, but in every country where ID cards have ever been introduced, they have changed the relation between the individual and the state in a way that has not proved beneficial to the individual. I am not just talking Nazi Germany, but everywhere.

It is also a spiritual matter: a person's identity is for him or her to decide and to control, and if someone decides to invest the details of their person in a higher authority, then it should not be the Home Office.

The compulsory ID card scheme is a sickness born of too much suspicion and too little regard for the meaning of tolerance and privacy in modern life.

Hooking individuals up to a system of instantly accessible data is an obscenity - not only a system waiting to be abused, but a system already abusing.

Though we don't pay much attention to moral philosophy in the mass media now - Bertrand Russell having long been exchanged for the Jeremy Kyle Show - it may be worth remembering that Britain has a tradition of excellence when it comes to distinguishing and upholding basic rights and laws in the face of excessive power.

The ID cards issue should be raising the most stimulating arguments about who we are and how we are - but no, it is not: we nose the grass like sheep and prepare to be herded once again.

It seems the only person speaking up with a broad sense of what this all means is Nick Clegg, the new leader of the Liberal Democrats, who has devoted much of his new year message to underlining the sheer horribleness of the scheme.

He has said he will go to jail rather than bow to this "expensive, invasive and unnecessary" affront to "our natural liberal tendencies".

I have to say I cheered when I heard this, not only because I agree, but because it is entirely salutary, in these sheepish times, to see a British politician express his personal feelings so strongly.

Many people on the other side of the argument make what might be called a category mistake when they say: "If you've nothing to hide, why object to carrying a card?"

Making it compulsory to prove oneself, in advance, not to be a threat to society is an insult to one's right not to be pre-judged or vetted.

Our system of justice is based on evidence, not on prior selection, and the onus on proving criminality is a matter for the justice system, where proof is of the essence.

Many regrettable things occur as a result of freedom - some teenage girls get pregnant, some businessmen steal from their shareholders, some soldiers torture their enemies, some priests exploit children - but these cases would not, in a liberal society, require us to end the private existence of all people just in case.

If the existence of terrorists, these few desperate extremists, makes it necessary for everybody in Britain to carry an ID card then it is a price too high.

It is more than a price, it is a defeat, and one that we will repent at our leisure. Challenges to security should, in fact, make us more protective of our basic freedoms; it should, indeed, make us warm to our rights.

In another age, it was thought sensible to try to understand the hatred in the eyes of our enemies, but now it seems we consider it wiser just to devalue the nature of our citizenship.

What's more - it won't work. Nick Clegg has pointed to the gigantic cost and fantastic hubris involved in this scheme, but recent gaffes with personal information have shown just how difficult it is to control and protect data.

A poll of doctors undertaken by doctors.net.uk has today shown that a majority of doctors believe that the National Programme for IT - seeking to contain all the country's medical records - will not be secure.

In fact, it is causing great worry. Many medical professionals fear that detailed information about each of us will soon be whizzing haphazardly from one place to another, leaving patients at the mercy of the negligent, the nosy, the opportunistic and the exploitative.

"Only people with something to hide will fear the introduction of compulsory ID cards."

That is what they say, and it sounds perfectly practical. If you think about it for a minute, though, it begins to sound less than practical and more like an affront to the reasonable (and traditional) notion that the state should mind its own business.

In a just society, what you have to hide is your business, until such times as your actions make it the business of others. Infringing people's rights is not an ethical form of defence against imaginary insult.

You shouldn't have to tell the government your eye colour if you don't want to, never mind your maiden name, your height, your personal persuasions in this or that direction, all to be printed up on a laminated card under some compulsory picture, to say you're one of us.

You weren't born to be one of us, that is something you choose, and to take the choice out of it is wrong. It marks the end of privacy, the end of civic volition, the end of true citizenship.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml;jsessionid=FWNUFJIWHJMXJQFIQMFSFFOAVCBQ0IV0?xml=/opinion/2008/01/01/do0101.xml
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Plane

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Re: What we have to fear from ID cards
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2008, 04:23:36 PM »
Does the person who walks in complete anonimity give over his right to vote?

Or is voteing supposed to be so annonamous that anyone can do it, as often as he pleases?

Michael Tee

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Re: What we have to fear from ID cards
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2008, 09:10:21 PM »
Voter fraud is something that's been around since there has been voting.  Apart from the fact that there is no evidence at all that photo ID will put a stop to voter fraud, I'd like to know how suddenly "voter fraud" has mushroomed into the kind of problem that demands such a drastic solution?  When did "voter fraud" reach such epic proportions that we must all suddenly surrender our privacy and carry around national ID cards as if we were citizens of apartheid South Africa or Saddam's Iraq?

There is absolutely no evidence that I have seen to indicate that voter fraud is any greater phenomenon today than it was thirty, sixty or one hundred years ago.  Yet suddenly the concern - - or professed concern - - over "voter fraud" has legislators - - "conservative" legislators, strangely enough - - salivating over the prospects of photo ID cards for everyone, to put an end to this ghastly menace of "voter fraud" that suddenly demands drastic solution.

But - - but - - the ACLU says, with considerable justification, that the photo ID proposals will disenfranchise a whole bunch of blacks, elderly, homeless and poor.  Can't we try a different way of eliminating "voter fraud?"  Retinal scans, perhaps?  "Nope.  Not interested.  Gotta be photo ID.  It's photo ID or nothing."

Well, uh, 'scuse me if I'm a wee bit skeptical here.  You're disenfranchising large numbers of voters in the name of fighting "voter fraud," but you aren't the least bit interested in any alternative measures for fighting "voter fraud," measures that might possibly be equally effective without disenfranchising anyone?  Sorry pal, it just doesn't compute.  It's pretty apparent now what your real interest is in promoting this particular piece of shit legislation.  Nice try, boys.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: What we have to fear from ID cards
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2008, 09:17:49 PM »
Don't Canadians have some sort of national ID?

I know all citizens of the EU have a "carnet".

I agree that this could cause a lot of abuse. I have been asked for my Social Security number by video stores and other businesses that have no reason to ask for it.

Since they can't verify it, rather than argue, I always give a bogus number.

At present, every state exercises the "right" to force every driver to pay to put a license plate on their car, and the state also exercises the "right" to photograph the plate and to fine the owner of the car for running tollbooths, regardless of who was driving the car. They also give discounts to drivers who buy electronic gizmos to pay for tolls. Soon they are going to force us to own these damn things to use the faster lanes of I-95, a federal highway paid for with out fuel taxes.

They do not give special deals to those of us who drive Diesel cars, even though we pay higher taxes.

« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 09:34:39 PM by Xavier_Onassis »
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Michael Tee

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Re: What we have to fear from ID cards
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2008, 09:36:12 PM »
<<Don't Canadians have some sort of national ID?>>

We each have a nine-digit Social Insurance Number (SIN) for filing individual income tax returns and for being credited with our contributions (during our working lives) to Canada Pension Plan and Canadian Old Age Security.  This number is requested on forms having to do with the collection or rebate of other Federal taxes (sales tax for example) and possibly other matters.  I think it also might be required on passport applications.  The SIN card which carries our number does not have photo ID and is never demanded as proof of identity per se.  Indeed, it couldn't prove identity, because its sole contents are a name and a number.

At the polling stations, we identify ourselves by name and address to the Returning Officer or the Deputy Returning Officer or any other official poll-watcher (there's a name for the lower-ranking officers but I forget what it is) and he or she checks off our name from a list of eligible voters.  People who have moved into the area too late to get on the list usually have some kind of postcard that's mailed in advance of the elections to all the householders in the area, and that can be produced if you are not named on the voters' roll.

What was being proposed in Britain was the same system as was used in Saddam's Iraq and in apartheid-era South Africa, or even, for that matter, in the former U.S.S.R.  - - a national photo ID card or "pass," to be carried upon one's person at all times, producible by law on demand by any agent of the state.  The state will know if you visited the red-light district or took a week-end jaunt while your wife was away on business; if you attended an opposition party rally at a fixed time and date or if you were at the apartment of a well-known political radical.  If you have no problem with being randomly called to account for yourself at any time and any place by agents of the state, then this plan is for you.

Amianthus

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Re: What we have to fear from ID cards
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2008, 09:47:19 PM »
At the polling stations, we identify ourselves by name and address to the Returning Officer or the Deputy Returning Officer or any other official poll-watcher (there's a name for the lower-ranking officers but I forget what it is) and he or she checks off our name from a list of eligible voters.

What happens if you show up to the polling station and your name and address have already been checked off as having voted?
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Michael Tee

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Re: What we have to fear from ID cards
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2008, 09:58:07 PM »
<<What happens if you show up to the polling station and your name and address have already been checked off as having voted?>>

I would assume the police would be called as a crime may have been committed.  I forget whether we have to sign opposite our names in the list that was checked off.  If we did, there's something for the police to go on - - a specimen of handwriting that might identify a suspect if there are other grounds to suspect him or her.

You would have to identify yourself to the satisfaction of the DRO or Returning Officer in order to vote.  I think they have the final say as to who votes, but their decision would be made in the presence of the scrutineers and could be reviewed or challenged subsequently, but once the decision was made that you could vote, even if the decision were found to be wrong on review, I can't see how the vote that went into the ballot box could be pulled out and cancelled, since it could not be identified as yours or anyone else's.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 07:59:58 AM by Michael Tee »

Amianthus

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Re: What we have to fear from ID cards
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2008, 10:41:12 PM »
You would have to identify yourself to the satisfaction of the DRO or Returning Officer in order to vote.

So, you would have to provide a photo ID?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: What we have to fear from ID cards
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2008, 11:57:32 PM »
<<So, you would have to provide a photo ID?>>

We live in a pretty affluent suburb, so that would probably be the easiest way to do it.  (Ontario driver's llicence) 

Also, most voters would personally know at least one of the polling station officers who could personally vouch for him or her.

Theoretically, if the voter had no photo ID, the cop could bring him to his place of residence and ask the neigbours, "Who is this guy?"

The "new" Ontario Health Cards have photo ID but for some reason, there's apparently a law on the books that they can't be used for purposes of personal ID.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: What we have to fear from ID cards
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2008, 12:27:06 AM »
I just took a course to be a pollworker, and it turns out that now Florida requires a photo ID to vote without doing so provisionally.
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Re: What we have to fear from ID cards
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2008, 12:41:56 PM »
The issue is much different in the UK. It primarily concerns Government benefits and illegal immigrants. It is an attempt to tie illegal immigration to national security, but like similar attempts in the United States it lacks very much merit.

There is some practical application concerning Government benefits, but in the true neoliberal style of New Labour, it is an attempt to make benefits more difficult to receive.
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Plane

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Re: What we have to fear from ID cards
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2008, 12:25:53 AM »

Well, uh, 'scuse me if I'm a wee bit skeptical here.  You're disenfranchising large numbers of voters in the name of fighting "voter fraud," but you aren't the least bit interested in any alternative measures for fighting "voter fraud," measures that might possibly be equally effective without disenfranchising anyone?  Sorry pal, it just doesn't compute.  It's pretty apparent now what your real interest is in promoting this particular piece of shit legislation.  Nice try, boys.


The ALU is against fingerprinting and retinal scans for voters too.

The whole Democatic party is against it because it wouod make i erymuch harder for the to get elected without the cheating that they are accustomed to relying on.

I do not buy the idea that there would be disenfranchisemn of voters in minority groups or amoung the poor , even of the very poor and the remote minorty possessio of photo IDis alrady very common and must be near 95%. The idea that it is for the purpose of disenfranchiseing the poor doesn't wash because it would be innefective at doing so.

But if it were effective t preventing cheting , the Democrati party would suffer greatly.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: What we have to fear from ID cards
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2008, 05:29:03 AM »
The ALU is against fingerprinting and retinal scans for voters too.

The whole Democatic party is against it because it wouod make i erymuch harder for the to get elected without the cheating that they are accustomed to relying on.

I do not buy the idea that there would be disenfranchisemn of voters in minority groups or amoung the poor , even of the very poor and the remote minorty possessio of photo IDis alrady very common and must be near 95%. The idea that it is for the purpose of disenfranchiseing the poor doesn't wash because it would be innefective at doing so.

But if it were effective t preventing cheting , the Democrati party would suffer greatly.
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This is just more Limbaugh crap. There is cheating on both sides to some minor degree, but to blame it all on one party is just dumb.

Voting for Democrats is occasionally dumb. Voting for Republicans who start wars they will not finish and lie about everything and then have all the info classified is even dumber.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: What we have to fear from ID cards
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2008, 07:59:38 AM »
The ALU is against fingerprinting and retinal scans for voters too.

The whole Democatic party is against it because it wouod make i erymuch harder for the to get elected without the cheating that they are accustomed to relying on.

I do not buy the idea that there would be disenfranchisemn of voters in minority groups or amoung the poor , even of the very poor and the remote minorty possessio of photo IDis alrady very common and must be near 95%. The idea that it is for the purpose of disenfranchiseing the poor doesn't wash because it would be innefective at doing so.

But if it were effective t preventing cheting , the Democrati party would suffer greatly.
===================================================================
This is just more Limbaugh crap. There is cheating on both sides to some minor degree, but to blame it all on one party is just dumb.

Voting for Democrats is occasionally dumb. Voting for Republicans who start wars they will not finish and lie about everything and then have all the info classified is even dumber.

Why should we think that the Cheating on behalf of the Democrats is minor ?
They are makeing a major effort to avoid ID cards when 80% of the voteing public likes the idea.

Is it really true that 80% of us are Republicans and the majority of the Democratic strength is from the graveyard?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: What we have to fear from ID cards
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2008, 10:20:17 AM »
Why should we think that the Cheating on behalf of the Democrats is minor ?

Uh.... because it is, and there is also cheating by Republicans.


=======================================
They are makeing a major effort to avoid ID cards when 80% of the voteing public likes the idea.

I don't think that anywhere near 80% of Americansd want a national ID card. WE use drivers' licences in Florida for voters, the state has a photo ID for the unlicensed, and both these and drivers' licenses have a photo on them, and are very hard to counterfeit. I have not heard anyone, Democrat of Republican ask for a national ID card here, ever. I see no evidence of any "major effort", either. I think theis is a process peculiar to inside your head.
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Is it really true that 80% of us are Republicans and the majority of the Democratic strength is from the graveyard?

No, it isn't. People in graveyards do not have photo ID's.

You are seriously deluded if you actually believe this nonsense you insist on spewing.
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