Author Topic: Pinochet Legacy  (Read 9304 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Religious Dick

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1153
  • Drunk, drunk, drunk in the gardens and the graves
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Pinochet Legacy
« on: January 23, 2008, 03:11:23 AM »
 Pinochet Legacy
by Paul M. Weyrich

General Augusto Pinochet was laid to rest after several years of illness, which prevented the Chilean Supreme Court from hearing criminal charges against him. I well recall the dark days of the early 1970s. We had cut and run from Viet Nam. The Communists were on the march in Angola and Mozambique. Salvadore Allende had been elected by a minority of the electorate and was busy moving Chile to a Communist state.

The Soviet Union, which seemed invincible, announced the Brezhnev Doctrine. Simply stated it was this: Once a Communist country, always a Communist country.

There was no turning back. You could never vote to undo a Communist regime or to overthrow such a regime by other means. If a state turned Communist it would remain a Communist regime forever.

Allende had been elected by a minority of the voters in a three-way split among the electorate. The outright conservative candidate received almost a third of the vote, the centrist candidate received nearly a third of the vote and finally the Communists under the banner of Allende received just over a third of the vote. He interpreted this as a mandate.

Pinochet staged a coup. He bombed the Presidential Palace in Santiago and took over communications in Chile. Pinochet?s saving of Chile from the Communists was ironic. Allende himself had placed the military under the control of Pinochet because he believed the military would be loyal to him. When the moment of truth came, Allende killed himself with a gun given to him by his pal Fidel Castro.

Pinochet took over Chile and ran it with a firm hand. Recognizing that he did not know anything about economics, he turned to the University of Chicago. Chicago economic scholars told him to initiate a free market. He did so. And it worked. Soon Chile was the most prosperous country in the region.

Pinochet did run Chile with an iron fist. Interestingly, when I was giving training seminars in the former Soviet Union, Pinochet?s name frequently came up. Russian leaders wanted my opinion if the Chilean model would be good for Russia.

In due course Pinochet promulgated a Constitution. He got the voters to ratify it. Then he proposed a referendum question, which if passed would allow him to continue in office for some years. If the resolution were defeated he said he would step down. I was part of a team working with the conservative forces in Chile, in preparation for the vote on the referendum. We were able to have breakfast with Pinochet. He was obviously well educated and clearly was prepared to step down if the referendum were defeated.

We trained the conservative forces and the election was reasonably close but his proposition clearly was defeated. So he stepped down. Chile had prompted the late great Jeanne Kirkpatrick to distinguish between totalitarian and authoritarian regimes. The Soviet Union was totalitarian, she opined. Chile was authoritarian.

When I went to Chile I was amazed to find freedom of the press. Far more than half of the media was highly critical of Pinochet. At that time there was no opposition press in the Soviet Union. Indeed, in Chile there was freedom of assembly. All sorts of groups and potential political parties were preparing for that resolution.

I asked Pinochet point blank if indeed he would be prepared to step down in light of defeat of his resolution. He told me he absolutely would do so. He kept his word.

Pinochet should go down in history as a liberator. He, alone, reversed the Brezhnev Doctrine. Today Chile is a prosperous left-of-center nation. People there have health-savings accounts and have better health care than in any other Latin American country. Pinochet made that happen. His free market reforms made Chile into a prosperous nation. He even looked after the poor with medical care.

Yet what he is known for, it seems to me, are the deaths of some 3,000 people and the torture of others. As William F. Buckley reminded us, Pinochet ?spoke with passion to say he had not himself known about, let alone authorized any of the random killings and torture laid at his door.?

Perhaps he did not know of these killings and the torture of the living. First, let it be said: He fought a war. And when you fight a war, people will end up dead. Second, to this day there are those who vilify Pinochet. I believe they cannot forgive him for reversing the Brezhnev Doctrine. He showed that you can overthrow a Communist regime and set it on a road to freedom. He was an authoritarian who agreed to step down, albeit reluctantly, when he lost the confidence of the people. Name me one Communist dictator of that era who stepped down when his efforts went astray. Not in Hungary, not in Poland, not in Estonia, not in Czechoslovakia. If something went wrong one Communist was replaced with another.

The Left in Chile set out to punish Pinochet. They never succeeded. Either he won an appeal or he became too ill to testify. I know it is heresy to say this but the people of Chile should thank Pinochet. He saved their nation from a brutal Communist ?experiment.? The Chilean people should ask the people who lived in the Soviet Empire how it was to live there. No free market. No free press. No freedom of assembly. I will light a candle in memory of Pinochet, the man who had the courage to take on the Soviet Empire.

Paul M. Weyrich is Chairman and CEO of the Free Congress Foundation.

http://acuf.org/issues/issue75/070108news.asp
I speak of civil, social man under law, and no other.
-Sir Edmund Burke

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Pinochet Legacy
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2008, 03:24:55 AM »
That was interesting.

Although I have frequently seen essays that praised Tito , Mao , Stalin, Kruchev, Castro and even Ho Ch Minh.

I very seldom see praise for Pinochet.

What did he do that Tito never did?

Or these others I mentioned?

Other than step down and release power without dieing first I mean.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Pinochet Legacy
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2008, 03:27:52 AM »
pinochet overthrew a democratically elected President to "save democracy?"  What crap.  Allende elected by a minority of voters?  So was Bush!

Chile is prosperous today?  40% of Chileans live below the poverty line.

Pinochet knew nothing of the tortures at the time?  Even I knew about them.  How could he not?  Amnesty International knew.  The Toronto Star knew.  The fucking RCC even knew.  But Pinochet, the President of the country didn't know.  WOW, that man must have been a very heavy sleeper.

This article, start to finish, is a pack of lies.  It's bullshit.  I know who the author is.  He's a fascist.  He'll asy anything in support of fascism.   This whole thing is absurd.

Religious Dick

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1153
  • Drunk, drunk, drunk in the gardens and the graves
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Pinochet Legacy
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2008, 03:34:02 AM »

Chile is prosperous today?  40% of Chileans live below the poverty line.


From the CIA World Factbook:
Quote
A three-year-old Marxist government of Salvador ALLENDE was overthrown in 1973 by a military coup led by Augusto PINOCHET, who ruled until a freely elected president was installed in 1990. Sound economic policies, maintained consistently since the 1980s, have contributed to steady growth, reduced poverty rates by over half, and have helped secure the country's commitment to democratic and representative government. Chile has increasingly assumed regional and international leadership roles befitting its status as a stable, democratic nation.
I speak of civil, social man under law, and no other.
-Sir Edmund Burke

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Pinochet Legacy
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2008, 03:40:50 AM »
The CIA WHAT-book?  The CIA was instrumental in the overthrow of the Allende government and the torture and murder of over 3,000 Chileans by fascist criminals.  And you think they're gonna admit to that in their own "factbook?"

These guys are bullshit artists, liars and murderers.  They're about as believable as the average Nazi war criminal.  Nice that they publish a factbook though.  Even the Nazi war criminals didn't have the chutzpah to do that.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Pinochet Legacy
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2008, 03:42:10 AM »
pinochet overthrew a democratically elected President to "save democracy?"  What crap.  Allende elected by a minority of voters?  So was Bush!

Chile is prosperous today?  40% of Chileans live below the poverty line.

Pinochet knew nothing of the tortures at the time?  Even I knew about them.  How could he not?  Amnesty International knew.  The Toronto Star knew.  The fucking RCC even knew.  But Pinochet, the President of the country didn't know.  WOW, that man must have been a very heavy sleeper.

This article, start to finish, is a pack of lies.  It's bullshit.  I know who the author is.  He's a fascist.  He'll asy anything in support of fascism.   This whole thing is absurd.

What sort of tactic would have been too drastic to use in a coup to overthrow Pinochet?

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Pinochet Legacy
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2008, 03:44:13 AM »
The CIA WHAT-book?  The CIA was instrumental in the overthrow of the Allende government and the torture and murder of over 3,000 Chileans by fascist criminals.  And you think they're gonna admit to that in their own "factbook?"

These guys are bullshit artists, liars and murderers.  They're about as believable as the average Nazi war criminal.  Nice that they publish a factbook though.  Even the Nazi war criminals didn't have the chutzpah to do that.


How reliable is your sorc that claims that 40% of Chilians live below a "poverty line".

You should look at that factbook, then critique it.

Religious Dick

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1153
  • Drunk, drunk, drunk in the gardens and the graves
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Pinochet Legacy
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2008, 03:48:26 AM »
The CIA WHAT-book?  The CIA was instrumental in the overthrow of the Allende government and the torture and murder of over 3,000 Chileans by fascist criminals.  And you think they're gonna admit to that in their own "factbook?"

These guys are bullshit artists, liars and murderers.  They're about as believable as the average Nazi war criminal.  Nice that they publish a factbook though.  Even the Nazi war criminals didn't have the chutzpah to do that.

*shrugs*

Their numbers are easily enough verified by outside sources. But since I can't get you to go to the factbook, I'll bring the factbook here...

Quote
Chile has a market-oriented economy characterized by a high level of foreign trade. During the early 1990s, Chile's reputation as a role model for economic reform was strengthened when the democratic government of Patricio AYLWIN - which took over from the military in 1990 - deepened the economic reform initiated by the military government. Growth in real GDP averaged 8% during 1991-97, but fell to half that level in 1998 because of tight monetary policies implemented to keep the current account deficit in check and because of lower export earnings - the latter a product of the global financial crisis. A severe drought exacerbated the recession in 1999, reducing crop yields and causing hydroelectric shortfalls and electricity rationing, and Chile experienced negative economic growth for the first time in more than 15 years. Despite the effects of the recession, Chile maintained its reputation for strong financial institutions and sound policy that have given it the strongest sovereign bond rating in South America. Between 2000 and 2007 growth ranged between 2%-6%. Throughout these years Chile maintained a low rate of inflation with GDP growth coming from high copper prices, solid export earnings (particularly forestry, fishing, and mining), and growing domestic consumption. President BACHELET in 2006 established an Economic and Social Stabilization Fund to hold excess copper revenues so that social spending can be maintained during periods of copper shortfalls. This fund will surpass $20 billion by the end of 2007. Chile continues to attract foreign direct investment, but most foreign investment goes into gas, water, electricity and mining. Unemployment has exhibited a downward trend over the past two years, dropping to 7.8% and 6.7% at the end of 2006 and 2007, respectively. Chile deepened its longstanding commitment to trade liberalization with the signing of a free trade agreement with the US, which took effect on 1 January 2004. Chile claims to have more bilateral or regional trade agreements than any other country. It has 57 such agreements (not all of them full free trade agreements), including with the European Union, Mercosur, China, India, South Korea, and Mexico.
I speak of civil, social man under law, and no other.
-Sir Edmund Burke

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Pinochet Legacy
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2008, 03:55:46 AM »
Does the factbook tell you what percentage of the population lives below the poverty line even now?

Does the factbook tell you what kind of tortures were used on the 3,000 Chileans tortured to death by their own government?  Does the factbook show you any pictures of the 3,000 Chileans that were tortured to death?  Or of their parents?   Does it show you what any of the bodies looked like after torture?

Does the factbook tell you what happened to the children of the 3,000 Chileans who were tortured to death?

Do you have any concept at all of right and wrong or is it all a question of GDP and GNP?

Religious Dick

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1153
  • Drunk, drunk, drunk in the gardens and the graves
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Pinochet Legacy
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2008, 04:07:11 AM »
Does the factbook tell you what percentage of the population lives below the poverty line even now?

Yes, it does! Try reading it!

EDIT: Population below poverty line:
   Definition Field Listing
        18.2% (2005)

That's a little shy of 40%

Does the factbook tell you what kind of tortures were used on the 3,000 Chileans tortured to death by their own government?  Does the factbook show you any pictures of the 3,000 Chileans that were tortured to death?  Or of their parents?   

Does it show you what any of the bodies looked like after torture?

Do you have any concept at all of right and wrong or is it all a question of GDP and GNP?

This from a guy who excuses Stalin's 20 million murders? Pinochet at least left his country better off than he found it. Not many people ever said that about Stalin...


« Last Edit: January 23, 2008, 04:14:53 AM by Religious Dick »
I speak of civil, social man under law, and no other.
-Sir Edmund Burke

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Pinochet Legacy
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2008, 04:29:39 AM »
DIT: Population below poverty line:
   Definition Field Listing
        18.2% (2005)

That's a little shy of 40%
===================================
It would be if I believed it.  I don't believe it.  JS or maybe XO posted the real figures for Chile recently in another thread.  I'll  have to leave it up to them to get the real figures.
=====================================================
<<This from a guy who excuses Stalin's 20 million murders? Pinochet at least left his country better off than he found it. Not many people ever said that about Stalin...>>

20 million murders is hilarious.  No wonder you believe anything the CIA chooses to put in its "factbook."

 Still, I'm curious.  There are many photos available of the faces of the 3,000 Chileans tortured to death under Pinochet's rule.  Did the "Factbook" show any?  Did it describe the tortures?  Did it show the conditions of the bodies of the torture victims?  Did it give the average age of the victims?  I kinda think these are some facts that the "factbook" wouldn't especially want anybody to know about.  Am I right?

Did the "factbook" tell you anything about the murder of General Schneider, the former head of the army, who WOULDN'T participate in a coup?  Did the "factbook" mention that General Scheider's killer used an American army weapon provided by the CIA so that nobody in the Chilean army would be implicated if the assassin was caught with his weapon?  Did the "factbook" tell you how much money the CIA expended in covert operations to "destabilize" the Chilean economy under Allende to prepare the way for the coup?

LMFAO.  That sure is some "factbook" you got hold of.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Pinochet Legacy
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2008, 04:44:07 AM »
DIT: Population below poverty line:
   Definition Field Listing
        18.2% (2005)

That's a little shy of 40%
===================================
It would be if I believed it.  I don't believe it.  JS or maybe XO posted the real figures for Chile recently in another thread.  I'll  have to leave it up to them to get the real figures.
=====================================================


How about my question?

What dd Pinochet ever do that ...say...Ho Chi Minh, woud not have done?

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Pinochet Legacy
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2008, 04:45:28 AM »
Ho Chi Minh never had 3,000 of his own citizens tortured to death.

Does that answer your question?

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Pinochet Legacy
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2008, 05:00:27 AM »
Ho Chi Minh never had 3,000 of his own citizens tortured to death.

Does that answer your question?


You are right!

Ho Chi Minh killed two million Vietnameese.

Pinochet is such a piker.

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Pinochet Legacy
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2008, 09:47:53 AM »


<<Ho Chi Minh killed two million Vietnameese.>>

Bullshit.  He led his country in a war for independence from foreigners, and the last foreigners he defeated were the Amerikkkans.  In the course of his driving the Amerikkkan invaders out of his country, 2,000,000 Vietnamese had to die, most of them killed by Amerikkkans. 

It seems to be typical of criminal fascist regimes to blame the victims of their aggression.  Hitler blames the Jews for the gas chambers, and Amerikkka blames the Vietnamese for the deaths of 2 million Vietnamese.  Too bad nobody except the fascists and their stooges is taken in by it.

<<Pinochet is such a piker.>>

Agreed.  But a piker when compared to Hitler.  You can't even compare him to Ho Chi Minh.  Uncle Ho was a courageous leader of his people in their long fight for independence, not a stooge of the CIA and an agent of U.S. imperialism.  Apples and oranges.