SOTU

[hnumpah]

The contacts between Al Qaeda and Saddam's government existed; they have been known about for years. However, there is no evidence that they worked together on anything, much less 911 - neither trusted the other.

Leaving the status quo would have allowed Saddam to...

This is as tiresome as the WMD's and ties to Al Qaeda and mushroom clouds over an American city.

There is no reason, if the sanctions were starting to slip as badly as you claim, that they could not have been tightened right back up. That could have been done without invading Iraq, driving to Baghdad, deposing Saddam, and getting almost 4000 American troops killed (and a lesser number of allies) at the cost of damn near five hundred billion dollars. Most of that money, and most of the 160,000 troops in Iraq, would have been better used to finish the job in Afghanistan and, if necessary, Pakistan. Showing that we actually did have the resolve to finish what we started there might have sent a clear signal to Saddam to cease and desist, or to his countrymen that it might be in their best interest to get rid of him on their own.

I don't know if it was because Saddam put a hit out on DaddyBush, or because Georgie wanted to be known as a war president, or if he was actually demented enough to believe his own bullshit, but whatever the reason, Plane at least got one thing right - invading Iraq was a bad idea.

[BT]

if

[Cynthia]

The contacts between Al Qaeda and Saddam's government existed; they have been known about for years. However, there is no evidence that they worked together on anything, much less 911 - neither trusted the other.

Leaving the status quo would have allowed Saddam to...

This is as tiresome as the WMD's and ties to Al Qaeda and mushroom clouds over an American city.

There is no reason, if the sanctions were starting to slip as badly as you claim, that they could not have been tightened right back up. That could have been done without invading Iraq, driving to Baghdad, deposing Saddam, and getting almost 4000 American troops killed (and a lesser number of allies) at the cost of damn near five hundred billion dollars. Most of that money, and most of the 160,000 troops in Iraq, would have been better used to finish the job in Afghanistan and, if necessary, Pakistan. Showing that we actually did have the resolve to finish what we started there might have sent a clear signal to Saddam to cease and desist, or to his countrymen that it might be in their best interest to get rid of him on their own.

I don't know if it was because Saddam put a hit out on DaddyBush, or because Georgie wanted to be known as a war president, or if he was actually demented enough to believe his own bullshit, but whatever the reason, Plane at least got one thing right - invading Iraq was a bad idea.

Thank you for your insight.

This is waht I want to read.

The pros and the cons......

I have a feeling you are dead on, Hnumpah

[Plane]

The contacts between Al Qaeda and Saddam's government existed; they have been known about for years. However, there is no evidence that they worked together on anything, much less 911 - neither trusted the other.

Leaving the status quo would have allowed Saddam to...

This is as tiresome as the WMD's and ties to Al Qaeda and mushroom clouds over an American city.

There is no reason, if the sanctions were starting to slip as badly as you claim, that they could not have been tightened right back up. That could have been done without invading Iraq, driving to Baghdad, deposing Saddam, and getting almost 4000 American troops killed (and a lesser number of allies) at the cost of damn near five hundred billion dollars. Most of that money, and most of the 160,000 troops in Iraq, would have been better used to finish the job in Afghanistan and, if necessary, Pakistan. Showing that we actually did have the resolve to finish what we started there might have sent a clear signal to Saddam to cease and desist, or to his countrymen that it might be in their best interest to get rid of him on their own.

I don't know if it was because Saddam put a hit out on DaddyBush, or because Georgie wanted to be known as a war president, or if he was actually demented enough to believe his own bullshit, but whatever the reason, Plane at least got one thing right - invading Iraq was a bad idea.

It is only as bad as the alternaives would have been any better.

The sanctions were killing a lot of poor and young Iraqis , Saddam had the UN oversight staff bribed blind " tightening  up " the sanctions would have only killed more infants.

The sanctions were loopholey where Saddam wanted loopholes ,he could spare a few thousand infants.Saddams grip on power and desire to do mischef were undiminished. Keeping the sanctions , even in a tightened up form would have never worked.

Back when Saddam was free to use Iraq as he wanted , he built giant cannons aimed at Israel , stockpiled germs , yellowcake and poision. Used the poision when the Iranians or Kurds were not dieing fast enough from bullets.

Hand a guy like that a victory and he would feel vindicated and bold , he would almost certainly have returned to his habits which had killed perhaps eight million Iraqis and Iranians and Kuwaitis .

How much better is that? However much that would be better, is the measure of how bad a decision it was to invade.

There was ,in 2003 ,no cheap and clean alternative available at all.

[Cynthia]

Most of that money, and most of the 160,000 troops in Iraq, would have been better used to finish the job in Afghanistan and, if necessary, Pakistan. Showing that we actually did have the resolve to finish what we started there might have sent a clear signal to Saddam to cease and desist, or to his countrymen that it might be in their best interest to get rid of him on their own.


I really do think you have hit the nail on the head, Hpah.

I agree totally at this point in time.

Not to say  ....to sirs or anyone else...Plane ....that we should not have taken Saddam down and out for his evil ways......

But, it was the WAY we approached the whole thing....that bothers me.

if" Bt..you can say "if"..all night...but what about "if" WE had waited to play our cards right and move in with clarity and intelligence?

Bush wasn't the most brilliant President we will ever have....in fact, many people thought he was one of the least intelligent leaders to enter the office. Sad, because I am a daughter of a right wing Rep.  I do believe in many things Rep. But this war was ill managed.

TOo much Too quickly.
For what?

Victory?

I refrain from calling Bush names. I take care not to bash his administration. I do believe in the ideals of Republicans, but this war was not well thougth out....too bad, because the women in the middle east are suffering and probably will continue to suffer for years to come. Where are the resources to help all the people with only an army of soldiers to fight. Draft?
GOd, I hope not.

[Plane]

.........we have yet to bring down the leader who constructed the beginning of our demise in '01.

I think as a strong nation, we could have done better.

I also regret this fact , but what exactly is Osama relying on to escape us?

I wish I knew , I would certainly exploit the knolege mysef.

Not knowing tho I can only suppose whether more troops in Afganistan would have hleped or not.

Wasn't there a guy number one on the most wanted ,that stayed on the run in North Carolina for six years?

Eric Roudolph was hideing  200 miles from Qantico but he had one freind who supported him , he was not caught till this one friend died.

I speculate that Osama has a freind and a hole in the ground better prepared than Eric Roudolph.

I have had ideas for pegging his location, most of m ideas involve less Army more NASA.

[BT]

How many pakistani deaths is osama's capture worth?

clarity and intelligence

[Plane]

How many pakistani deaths is osama's capture worth?

clarity and intelligence

Fourty eight and three fifths.

[BT]

my guess is the death toll would be in the hundreds of thousands, unless the lancet calculated them and then it would be in the millions.

[Plane]

my guess is the death toll would be in the hundreds of thousands, unless the lancet calculated them and then it would be in the millions.

I would bet it is someones job to estimate scientificly how many bystanders it is acceptable to wound or kill. I am pretty sure that the Air Force would flatten a neighbohood to get at Saddam  ,but there is a limit somewhere near this.

[Plane]

my guess is the death toll would be in the hundreds of thousands, unless the lancet calculated them and then it would be in the millions.

I would bet it is someones job to estimate scientificly how many bystanders it is acceptable to wound or kill. I am pretty sure that the Air Force would flatten a neighbohood to get at Osama  ,but there is a limit somewhere near this.

[Cynthia]

There are too many being killed in Iraq to date......I fear we've made a mistake.


Goodnight, men.

[hnumpah]

How many pakistani deaths is osama's capture worth?

How many would it take to convince them, and Musharaff, that we were dead serious about eradicating Osama and Al Qaeda, and that rather than hiding them out as the Taliban in Afghanistan did, they would be better served helping hunt them down? We would only need to go into Pakistan if they allowed them to hide there; Musharaff claims he can't control the border regions, then gets all puffed up and threatens us if we send troops in, get this now, into a region he and his army can't control to start with (according to him, anyway). If he can't dig Osama and some pissant ragtag army out of there, what threat would he be to us?

That would also have sent a strong message to Saddam and the rest of the world that we were serious and committed to stopping terrorism, and that once we had finished the job in Afghanistan, anyone else who supported terrorism might be next.

Instead, we showed everyone that we were willing to give terrorists a pass, to invade a country and depose a dictator that posed no threat to us, on a whim. And people wonder why America is losing the world's respect.

[Michael Tee]

<<Fear that liberals will allow another 9-11 to happen looms over us all..>>

Funny, I thought it was BUSH who allowed 9-11 to happen.  Eight months on the job, plenty of time to tighten up airport security, Clinton long gone, but, no . . .  blame 9-11 on the liberals too.

If you look at 9-11 as the product of Muslim rage, ask yourself who - - liberals or conservatives - - have added more fuel to Muslim rage since Bush took over the White House.  Then if another 9-11 does happen, you'll at least know who to thank.

Whatever the levels of Muslim rage were against the U.S.A. when Clinton left office, I would bet that since Afghanistan, Iraq, Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, they have increased by at least a thousandfold under Bush.

[Plane]

<<Fear that liberals will allow another 9-11 to happen looms over us all..>>

Funny, I thought it was BUSH who allowed 9-11 to happen.  Eight months on the job, plenty of time to tighten up airport security, Clinton long gone, but, no . . .  blame 9-11 on the liberals too.

If you look at 9-11 as the product of Muslim rage, ask yourself who - - liberals or conservatives - - have added more fuel to Muslim rage since Bush took over the White House.  Then if another 9-11 does happen, you'll at least know who to thank.

Whatever the levels of Muslim rage were against the U.S.A. when Clinton left office, I would bet that since Afghanistan, Iraq, Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, they have increased by at least a thousandfold under Bush.

Looking forward to the thousand fold 9-11 an the thousandfold wrath of the US responding after that.

President Hillary will be compelled to do at least as well as her predicessor.