Author Topic: civil disobedience  (Read 8489 times)

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Universe Prince

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civil disobedience
« on: February 29, 2008, 12:45:45 AM »
Yeah, yeah, I know, by bothering to post this I'm virtually asking for people to say derogatory things about libertarianism. But I'd still like to spread around the ideas and the discussion. So rushing in where wise men would fear to tread, I press on.

So over at TCS Daily, Arnold Kling, a TCS Contributing Editor and an adjunct scholar with the Cato Institute, posted an informal discussion of some libertarian ideas. In that discussion, can be found this:


      The thing is, libertarians spend all their time arguing theory. Can we make Constitutional government work, which is what you were talking about? Would David Friedman's idea of anarcho-capitalism work, or would it break down? It's all about theory, not about action.

You don't solve everything with theory. You solve a lot of problems with trial-and-error. We need a trial-and-error approach to move toward libertarianism. That's the idea of forming splintered states.

So you're saying we should form splintered states now?

We should be aiming for that. We ought to aim to set up schools, banks, health clinics, and so on that operate without government licenses. Instead, they would have alternative trust mechanisms. We would aim to have businesses that can operate informally, so that they do not withold taxes.

So, some sort of secret utopia, like in Atlas Shrugged?

No, not secret at all. Completely open. In today's society, it's almost impossible to operate in secret. Secrecy means weakness. In order to be strong, you have to be open.

I am thinking more like open, nonviolent defiance of laws that require licenses, paying onerous taxes, and so on.

By nonviolent, you mean like Gandhi?

Well, like Gandhi in the sense that we would be counting on a civilized society not to engage in severe repression. We would have the same idea. Millions of ordinary, decent Americans engaging in peaceful disobedience, making it awkward for the government to engage in repression.

But you know, Gandhi wound up producing a lot of violence. Soon after he started his movement, he renounced it because of violence. And India's independence was extremely violent. Maybe that is because he was dealing with a lot of Muslims. But it also could be that there is a tendency in any revolutionary movement for some sub-group to say, "Hey, we're not getting what we want. We need to start breaking stuff and killing people." If that's the case, then it would be a bad idea to start any sort of revolutionary movement.

What would be some examples of nonviolent activities?

Run a small school without a license. Do some health care services without a license. Run a small part-time business without complying with the payroll tax.
      

Kenneth Silber, another TSC Daily contributor, has a response to this on his blog. To which Arnold Kling replied, this time over at EconLog.

Anyway, I find the idea intriguing. But my real question is, would civil disobedience even work, for this or any other purpose? Easy to say it worked in the 1960s, but as some people like to point out, everything changed on September 11, 2001. Would civil disobedience work in the current "war on terrorism" society, and how many people participating would it take to be effective in this country of 300+ million people? If it could work at all, would it work with something like libertarianism, or is that too broad? Does civil disobedience need a single, emotionally charged issue to be effective?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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kimba1

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Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2008, 02:20:47 AM »
I like the idea of running a  school without a license.

grassroots education stuff

I truely think schools todays are blouted monsters drowning in it`s own waste and is unaware it`s in trouble.

Universe Prince

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Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2008, 03:27:15 AM »
I like the idea too, but the question is, could it be done? I'd like to see it tried all over, but I also think we'd see state and/or federal law enforcement stepping in to shut the schools down as soon as possible. And not politely. Of course, part of the risk of civil disobedience is the risk of ending up in jail. We look back and say civil rights protesters risking and many times going to jail was so courageous. But who's going to find risking jail over bucking the education system courageous? I mean, the idea of vouchers or competition among schools here is either disdained as foolishness or if someone speaks in favor, he has to apologize and insist he is not against public education. Imagine what happens to the folks who try operating a school without a license. And even if it could be done, is the result a change in favor of more or less regulations? Would we see a reaction like what happened after the Kelo v. New London decision, when state legislatures passed laws against eminent domain abuse, or would it be like the illegal immigration situation with people all over not looking to lessen regulations but to make stricter regulations with stricter punishments? I'm not saying it shouldn't be tried. I'm saying it probably should be done with caution and patience. It would not be something that could only be done short-term. For civil disobedience to work, if it could work at all, it would have to be done long-term.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

BT

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Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #3 on: February 29, 2008, 05:47:55 AM »
Quote
I mean, the idea of vouchers or competition among schools here is either disdained as foolishness or if someone speaks in favor, he has to apologize and insist he is not against public education.

Not sure where you get that. Most people center to center right here are for just that. I know i am. And if public schools can't meet the dual challenge of providing a quality education and competing in the market place they should be defunded.

And i would suspect that the homeschool movement is at the forefront of your civil disobedience dream.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2008, 06:46:19 AM »
   The thing is, libertarians spend all their time arguing theory. Can we make Constitutional government work, which is what you were talking about? Would David Friedman's idea of anarcho-capitalism work, or would it break down? It's all about theory, not about action.

=====================================================
For many, maybe most, it seems that libertarianism is not so much an ideology as a hobby.
It also provides a buzz to its hobbyists when they constantly remind non-libertarians that they are stupid tools.

It's as though a dungeons and dragons hobbyist could summon forth a fire-breathing dragon on demand. Well, almost. It appears to give them an ego burst, anyway.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Stray Pooch

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Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2008, 08:55:34 AM »
The idea of an unlicensed school would find opposition on two fronts.  First, the economic and political clout against it would come, of course, from the NEA.  Like so many other organizations that seek to secure their monopolies with gratuitous licensing requirements, the teacher's union will scream  (in true Mrs. Lovejoy fashion) "Please, won't someone think of the children?"  But the arm of that clout will be expressed, of course, by the government.  Between NCLB and just the general idea of Outceom Based Education, the government will insist that all students be subjected to testing to prove that they meet minimum education requirements.  Failure to agree to (and comply with) this requirement would be met not only with potential jail time (for which participants would be presumably prepared) but also child neglect charges and the removal of children from homes - for which the participants are very unlikely to be prepared.  Such actions have already been taken, though there has been some success against that in the courts.  But a concerted government effort would, I think, be ultimately far too costly to the movement to sustain it.   To comply with the testing requirements, OTOH, would be tantamount to licensing.

You also mention businesses which do not withhold.  Jail time is a given, but more to the point the IRS would move immediately to seize the assets of such businesses and/or their employees.  A means of possible avoidance would be to pay estimated taxes up front, but that, again, negates the point of the exercise.

Even given the courage of participants faced with incarceration, how many are willing to tear their families apart and give up their homes and other assets?  No doubt some would, and such things may generate sympathy from the public to some extent.  But not, I think, very much.  It is one thing to rally behind a people held in bondage for centuries and unable to do something as simple as eat at a restaraunt or use a bathroom because of skin color.  It's another thing to feel sorry for people who have to send their kids to school and pay taxes. 

In the end, such ideals would be viewed by most as at best overzealous and at worst dangerously cultish.  No doubt a lot of people would be sympathetic to the basic idea of standing up to the government, and even more to the idea of controlling your own kid's education.   But public education and the idea of taxation are ingrained in the public psyche.  The cause would seem more like political grandstanding, not like the noble stands taken by Ghandi and King.  In the end, I think such gestures would be neither successful in the short term nor meaningful in the long run.

Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

fatman

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Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2008, 09:48:00 AM »
The idea of an unlicensed school would find opposition on two fronts.  First, the economic and political clout against it would come, of course, from the NEA.  Like so many other organizations that seek to secure their monopolies with gratuitous licensing requirements, the teacher's union will scream  (in true Mrs. Lovejoy fashion) "Please, won't someone think of the children?"  But the arm of that clout will be expressed, of course, by the government.  Between NCLB and just the general idea of Outceom Based Education, the government will insist that all students be subjected to testing to prove that they meet minimum education requirements.  Failure to agree to (and comply with) this requirement would be met not only with potential jail time (for which participants would be presumably prepared) but also child neglect charges and the removal of children from homes - for which the participants are very unlikely to be prepared.  Such actions have already been taken, though there has been some success against that in the courts.  But a concerted government effort would, I think, be ultimately far too costly to the movement to sustain it.   To comply with the testing requirements, OTOH, would be tantamount to licensing.

Thanks for saying what I couldn't find the words to say Pooch.

The_Professor

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Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2008, 12:28:31 PM »
Having homeschooled my daughter for many years, I experienced some of this. Here in Georgia, my daughter had to take standardized tests like the ITBS in order to assure she was coming along nicely, aka like students in public education. Many homeschooling parents objected as an intrusion into their process of educating their child/ren. I didn't mind as I felt it was just another piece of collaborating evidence that I was doing my job.

Now, if the system had required me to test her via a test of public school devising (and not one from a wide variety of tests like they did), I might have said "up yours!" I would have instantly entertained thoughts of a conspiratorial nature as I do and did not trust the NEA or public educators in general. They, correspondingly, feel the same about homeschooling parents. How do I know? Many of them have told me this over the years from high school principals to teachers to couselors. They see homeschooling as a threat to their hegemony and CONTROL.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2008, 02:23:52 PM by The_Professor »
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kimba1

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Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2008, 01:39:31 PM »
I said this many times academicly it`s great for the kid no question what so ever.
but It`ll never be a true threat to public school.
it`s just too demanding for most parents to do.
but seriously prof. I`ll bet good money your daughter would still pass those test devised by the public schools
just simply make sure thier own students can pass them also
bet she`ll get a better score.

Rich

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Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2008, 04:04:22 PM »
You know prince, it's not that there's really something wrong with libertarianism, it's that it's proponents refuse to see the reality that keeps them losers. I've said in the past that despite Ron Paul being a bit on the wacky side, he at least did it right. He worked inside the Republican system to get his views out there and to try and effect change inside the party that represents his views the closest. By working within a real political party he at least doesn't assure the election of a democrat which is miles away from what he believes.

I'm also a fan of vouchers, but I think schools will always have to be held to some kind of standard. Not all public schools are bad, by the way. Out here in fly over country they're mostly pretty good. In most cases, the problem is with the students and their parents, not the teachers.

kimba1

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Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2008, 04:17:09 PM »
well
I wouldn`t blame the students
the parents is another matter altogether.
no rule or policy is made out of a whim despite what anyone says.
often i hear that parents bright students are told that thier child must not excell to not hurt the feeling of other students.
No F&^king way is this thinking made by government.
only a complaint of a parents would cause such nonesense.


Universe Prince

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Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #11 on: February 29, 2008, 04:26:31 PM »

In the end, such ideals would be viewed by most as at best overzealous and at worst dangerously cultish.  No doubt a lot of people would be sympathetic to the basic idea of standing up to the government, and even more to the idea of controlling your own kid's education.   But public education and the idea of taxation are ingrained in the public psyche.  The cause would seem more like political grandstanding, not like the noble stands taken by Ghandi and King.  In the end, I think such gestures would be neither successful in the short term nor meaningful in the long run.


That such things are ingrained, seems to me, is exactly why something like civil disobedience might be the only means to counter such things. Certainly they won't be changed by elections.

Political grandstanding not noble stands you say. Seems to me, like what King and Ghandi led, a libertarian civil disobedience could be both. Much would depend on getting people willing to spend the time defending these efforts as not petty protests against the so-called "contributing" to society, but as actually contributing to society.

Not successful in the short term you say. The first question that comes to mind is: What civil disobedience movement is ever genuinely successful in the short term? The second question that comes to mind is: What do you mean by "successful"? (No, not to rehash previous meaning arguments, just a straightforward question asking for clarification.) Not meaningful in the long term you say. I think that will depend the commitment of those involved and how it is defended. No one is claiming this will be easy.

This is not to say your criticisms are not valid. But I would say, in my perpetual optimism, that your criticisms are reasons for caution and consideration, but not for abandonment.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Universe Prince

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Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2008, 04:33:02 PM »

I'm also a fan of vouchers, but I think schools will always have to be held to some kind of standard. Not all public schools are bad, by the way.


There is no reason to think that schools with less government intrusion would not be held to standards. And no one (well, except maybe the anarchists) is arguing that public schools should be eliminated.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Plane

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Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2008, 04:34:26 PM »
It is good to bring up Ghandi , who was the master of the non-violence method.

His people were most effective when they were most disaplined , can American Libertarians manage this sort of thing?

His disobediances were carefully chosen , it was embarrassing to the regime to enforce a tax on salt or forbid the manufacture of fabric , disobedience to laws that were more reasonably founded or disobedience to a long list of laws would have had the opposite public impact than the resistance to these few unreasonable and hard to defend laws . If he had of needed to change every objectionable law one by one he could have done it as long as he had such a large number of very disaplined people resisting .

The non violence was almost all on one side , his people came away from contact with the authoritys with bruses very often and occasionly suffered gunshot even when they were quite non-violent , Gandi was asked about the suffering and death non-violent resistance would cause and admitted that he expected it , but that violent resistance would cause no less suffering .

Was Thoreau a Libertarian in sprit?

http://thoreau.eserver.org/

Universe Prince

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Re: civil disobedience
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2008, 04:35:23 PM »

often i hear that parents bright students are told that thier child must not excell to not hurt the feeling of other students.


Are you serious? Not that such would surprise me, but I haven't heard that before.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--