California judge says no to homeschooling

[Amianthus]

Sirs, you might try contributing to the debate in a meaningful way as opposed to negatively attacking people who are trying to make positive contributions. I seriously doubt your last two posts are what Bt had in mind when he asked for the level of debate to be raised.

Actually, in a way his comments were meaningful. He was pointing out how I have asked for quotes from the act to support various claims, and have yet to see ONE SINGLE QUOTE from the NCLB act in hundreds of responses.

[Cynthia]

BIngo!

[_JS]

Js, if you'd bother going back in the thread, you wouldn't look so weak in this attempt to minimize my criticism.  FYI, I have contributed substantial commentary and suggestions, all rebuffed because "I'm not a teacher, I can't possibly know what I'm talking about"

*sigh*

Obviously you can post what you like. I'm not trying to attack you or your character Sirs. You're probably as fine a person as anyone who posts here.

My point is that such posts do nothing to help.

And in fairness, are you a parent? Maybe one doesn't have to be a teacher, but I do think it is difficult to understand the education of a child until one is a parent. (In fairness I never understood that until I had children and one of mine started school.)

[sirs]

Js, if you'd bother going back in the thread, you wouldn't look so weak in this attempt to minimize my criticism.  FYI, I have contributed substantial commentary and suggestions, all rebuffed because "I'm not a teacher, I can't possibly know what I'm talking about"

*sigh*

Obviously you can post what you like. I'm not trying to attack you or your character Sirs. You're probably as fine a person as anyone who posts here.  My point is that such posts do nothing to help.

Actually they do.  They reinforce a particulary important point that was made

And in fairness, are you a parent?

Ahhh......so, in fairness, are you in the military?  Are we going down that tract again, where unless you're in X or do X, you can not critize X??   

[_JS]

Did I say you could not criticize, or even have an important voice?

I said, "it is difficult to understand the education of a child until one is a parent."

I'm not attacking you in every post Sirs. Take it easy.

[sirs]

Did I say you could not criticize, or even have an important voice?  I said, "it is difficult to understand the education of a child until one is a parent."

Well, with all due respect, understanding the education of a child, also requires understanding the current trend of education efforts, incl what's working and what's not. 

No one is argueing that parenting and educating a child is child's play.  But to bring up query's like "Have you been a teacher?", or "Do you have children?", is an apparent overt effort to not only deflect some of the criticisms being raised, but to even try to shield one from such criticism.  And for some then falling back to the standard DNC talking points of how all we need are "smaller class sizes" & "more $$$".

Ami, Prince, & Bt have done an outstanding job of demonstrating how the criticisms of NCLB are largely rhetorical, that no one criticising it can bring up any specific provisions within it to say "see, right there", and instead pull up op-ed after op-ed, many from the NEA or other Democratic driven organization, full of how terrible NCLB is, and how instead we just need to "invest" more in the Public Education system

I'm not attacking you in every post Sirs. Take it easy.

Never implied you were.  You were just trying to shield you and Miss Cynthia from some substantive criticism.  She's already tried that tact.  So, no need to get defensive

[_JS]

Did I say you could not criticize, or even have an important voice?  I said, "it is difficult to understand the education of a child until one is a parent."

Well, with all due respect, understanding the education of a child, also requires understanding the current trend of education efforts, incl what's working and what's not. 

No one is argueing that parenting and educating a child is child's play.  But to bring up query's like "Have you been a teacher?", or "Do you have children?", is an apparent overt effort to not only deflect some of the criticisms being raised, but to even try to shield one from such criticism.  And for some then falling back to the standard DNC talking points of how all we need are "smaller class sizes" & "more $$$".

Ami, Prince, & Bt have done an outstanding job of demonstrating how the criticisms of NCLB are largely rhetorical, that no one criticising it can bring up any specific provisions within it to say "see, right there", and instead pull up op-ed after op-ed, many from the NEA or other Democratic driven organization, full of how terrible NCLB is, and how instead we just need to "invest" more in the Public Education system.

I've heard some very substantive discussions from Governor Richardson, then Governor Dean, and others on the NCLB. I would certainly suggest looking at what the different governors who have had to implement the law have had to say.

Moreover, the actual wording of the Act and the effects of a law are not always identical. Unforeseen consequences often happen with legislation, especially new legislation that makes significant changes which is why I asked about OFSTED and independent performance measures to which I've only received a brief reply from Ami about one small segment of my post, to which I'm more than happy to say I was mistaken.

[sirs]

So, in the mean time, until we actually have specific provisions in NCLB pointed to, in order to validate some of the criticisms that have been largely refuted, such as no science to be taught, funds to be cut (when the bill mandates increased funding), 1 size fits all (when there are 3tiers that have been referenced), and most notably, how it's up to the states themselves to set their own reasonable standards of how to achieve their results, all we have is the status quo of op-eds, largely by teachers' unions and Democrats (who not so surprisingly get scores of $$ contributions from the teachers' unions), minus of course the prequisate specifics, but loaded to the brim with accusatory claims

[Cynthia]

This is not going to make any sense to you all, but

PLAY IS A CHILD'S WORK.

It's too bad that the focus is less on what the child needs and more on what a society needs....i.e. a president NEEDS.

[Cynthia]

Tried and true methods for teaching have been on the "books' for decades and decades....Piaget, and so many others....Professional men and women who have taken the time to devote THEIR LIVES to educating children.

Then, in one swoop. An idiot president comes along and decides that teachers know nothing!

I'll tell you another thing about all of this;

Perhaps we live in a new world ...a world when we must adjust to the televison, video games, face the music with "A book is the new dinosaur" mentality.
Perhaps this world of the child is at a critical mass we just have to do what the BOSS demands.

Be damned the intense research and massive professionalism that has gone into the soup of education..
BY DAMN, WE ARE THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA...
WE MUST BE THE BEST.

WE MUST OFFER VOUCHERS.

WE MUST KICK ASS and leave so many kids behind.


Ok, I'll calm down...but this is an outrage.....Bush is an IDIOT.

[Amianthus]

Then, in one swoop. An idiot president comes along and decides that teachers know nothing!

Funny, the NCLB act requires states to formulate the requirements by getting input from teachers.

What part of that means "teachers know nothing"?

[Lanya]

I agree with Cynthia on quite a bit (not a McCain supporter, but that's about it).

I almost feel as if someone mandated that every classroom have a shiny new yardstick, and every pupil had to grow a certain amount every week.

The yardstick is the NCLB.  The children are not going to measure exactly what you want them to measure; their growth and development vary and it's just not going to happen, mandate or no.

And if the President and Congress are so very concerned with children meeting educational standards, then why are private and home schools exempt?
Do they not also teach children?
Are some children more equal than others?
Is it presumed that private and home schools are "good" and public schools are "bad"?

Before I forget:

New Braunfels teacher alleges death threat over scores
   CBS 42 Reporter: Alexis Patterson

Last Update: 3/26 11:01 pm

   New Braunfels Teacher Alleges Threat
New Braunfels teacher Anita White made the allegation that a principal issued a death threat over test scores.
New Braunfels teacher Anita White made the allegation that a principal issued a death threat over test scores.
Related Links


A Central Texas teacher claims she got a death threat over test scores. Her principal adamantly denies the claim.

A woman who used to work at New Braunfels Middle School told CBS 42's Alexis Patterson that the principal threatened to kill teachers if test scores didn't improve -- a claim now under investigation by police.

Anita White used to teach science at the middle school.

She claims during a meeting in January, the principal said -- if test scores didn't meet his standards -- he would kill teachers, then himself.

"We were just sitting there in shock," White says. "And then, the next statement was, 'you just don't know how ruthless I can be.'"

The district issued a firm statement: "While police investigate a complaint, New Braunfels Middle School officials deny a teacher's claim that she was threatened to enhance test scores."

White says another teacher approached a board member, but nothing happened until mid-March. White said at that time, the New Braunfels Middle School principal was again unhappy with scores and reassigned her to the alternative campus after 18 years at the middle school.

"I couldn't understand," she said. "If I had the highest test scores, and you're wanting high test scores -- what's up with that? His last statement to me was 'I told you I was ruthless,' and that just brought back the threat of killing us."

White began writing her statement, and her husband filed a police report a few days ago.

"I'm in a better place now that I'm not there," she said. "And I guess that's why I felt comfortable coming out with this and taking the next step after going to a board member twice."

The district characterizes her claim: "The complaint comes on the heels of a New Braunfels Middle School science teacher being reassigned to the district's alternative school campus. Principal John Burks says all personnel decisions are made with the best interests of students in mind."
Copyright 2008, Four Points Media Group LLC. All Rights Reserved.
http://www.keyetv.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=a61e90a0-9465-43ee-9c20-ca0a2451fca3&rss=909

[Amianthus]

I almost feel as if someone mandated that every classroom have a shiny new yardstick, and every pupil had to grow a certain amount every week.

The yardstick is the NCLB.  The children are not going to measure exactly what you want them to measure; their growth and development vary and it's just not going to happen, mandate or no.

Except that the NCLB says that states and local school districts are to determine what the growth rate is, so it's a yardstick that can get longer or shorter as needed.

[Amianthus]

And if the President and Congress are so very concerned with children meeting educational standards, then why are private and home schools exempt?
Do they not also teach children?
Are some children more equal than others?
Is it presumed that private and home schools are "good" and public schools are "bad"?

Let's correct that little problem right now!

You call your Congress Critters and I'll call mine.

I'd love it if private and home schools got some of that money!

Oh wait, I bet you just want them to meet the standards, but not get any of the money that's given to the schools to help them meet the standards, right?

[sirs]

D'OH