McCain and the Conservatives

[sirs]

And why would sirs say home?

[Rich]

>>Prince does have a point, Rich...<<

Like I said earlier, he usually makes good points. I've nothing but respect for his principled stance on the issues. The problem is that he isn't part of the solution, he remains part of the problem. At least Ron Paul saw the wisdom of working with people who at least agree with you 90 percent of the time rather than sitting on your high horse handing power over to people you disagree with 99 percent of the time.

I don't like McCain much either. But vote for a democrat for president? Not bloody likely.

[sirs]

I don't like McCain much either. But vote for a democrat for president? Not bloody likely.

I'd consider Lieberman.....depending on who he's running against.  Definately would consider Zell Miller over McCain. 

Alas, It'll be cold day in hell before the MMoore/GSoros contingent of the party ever let that happen

[Universe Prince]

I guess being a libertarian means always being able to say, "Aren't I wonderful?" while the rest of us have to actually live in reality and try and work for compromise within a real political party.

No. More like always being able to say "principles matter" and mean it while other people compromise principles in the name of pragmatism.

People sometimes talk about the difficulty of committing to going to church or church programs. As one Youth Pastor I know says, what it really comes down to is people looking for a better offer for their time because if church services and church programs were actually important to them, they would make the time to be there.

Seems to me, if the principles really matter to people, they will find the way to adhere to them. Not saying one cannot work with others and maintain principles. Just the opposite. If compromise is your priority, then compromise is what you'll do. And if compromise with people whose principles are your "ideological polar opposite" is what you work for, then you're giving in to those people. You're helping them win. Not me.

I'm not opposed to compromise completely. Ron Paul and I don't agree about certain issues, like immigration. But I would be quite willing to compromise and give him my vote. (And I did in the primary.) Voting for someone like McCain, however, with whom I disagree much and cannot trust on anything where we might agree, that isn't compromise. That is capitulation. I'm not interested in that.

When it's all over you can continue to be what you'll always been; irrelevant.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Sorry if you took it negatively, but then you always do.

Not sure how "So go ahead, stand on your principle. I hope they can keep your head above water." ends up being a complement. Feel free to explain.

[Christians4LessGvt]

Near as  can I can tell, I have no reason to believe McCain won't be doing the same thing.

Well UP honestly reality does not bear that out.

John McCain has a lifetime rating of 80 from the American Conservation Union.
Senator Barack Obama has a lifetime rating of 8 from the American Conservative Union.
Senator Obama is rated as the "most liberal member of the US Senate in 2007".
John McCain is far from perfect, but he is miles from being in the same ballpark as Obama.
To pretend McCain & Obama would govern the same or appoint the same judges is with all due respect foolhardy.

[Universe Prince]

The problem is that he isn't part of the solution, he remains part of the problem.

Or, from a different perspective, I'm part of the solution, not part of those seeking to compromise with the problem.

[Rich]

>>I'd consider Lieberman.....depending on who he's running against.  Definately would consider Zell Miller over McCain.<<

I can go along with that.

[Universe Prince]

To pretend McCain & Obama would govern the same or appoint the same judges is with all due respect foolhardy.

I didn't say they would govern the same or appoint the same judges. But I think the overall effect of either one's Presidency would be quite uncomfortably similar.

[Christians4LessGvt]

"How did John Kerry lose this title?
He was the most liberal four years ago.
Is it perhaps bestowed by Rush ?"
 

http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/

[Rich]

>>Or, from a different perspective, I'm part of the solution, not part of those seeking to compromise with the problem.<<

Wonderful. Not sit over there in the corner stroking your perspective while the rest of us try and hash this out. I'm sure you'll be telling us how wrong we are from time to time but excuse us if we ignore you because we've got work to do.

I know you will take offense, but I'm not trying to pick a fight. I really do applauder you and your principles.

[Universe Prince]

That said, Rich is right that simply "sitting it out" largely makes whatever criticism one wishes to lodge moot, since that person made no effort to at least shape the country via their vote.
   

I did not say I would not vote. I only said I wouldn't be voting Republican.

There is a case to be made, however, that voting does little to shape the country and essentially gives support to a bad system run by "lesser" evils. Vote for Mephistopheles or Beelzebub, and if you don't vote you haven't tried to be part of the "solution". Vote for arrogance or hubris, and if you complain then you're not being pragmatic about the reality of the situation. Vote for pestilence or plague, and if you object then you're irrelevant and have no right to complain about the direction this country takes.

I'm not saying the country is that bad just yet, but I am trying to make a point about how the "pragmatism over principles" argument sometimes, if not frequently, appears to folks on the other side of it.

[Universe Prince]

Not sit over there in the corner stroking your perspective while the rest of us try and hash this out. I'm sure you'll be telling us how wrong we are from time to time but excuse us if we ignore you because we've got work to do.

Or, from a different perspective, I'll be working on the solution while you sit around figuring out how to make a "lesser" evil seem good.

I know you will take offense, but I'm not trying to pick a fight. I really do applauder you and your principles.

Thanks. Just don't get snippy then when I, ahem, poke back.

[Rich]

>> I'll be working on the solution ... <<

Fine, work on the solution. The problem is you won't be able to implement it sitting over there stroking it. You have to become part of the process. Until then, unfortunately, you're just a fridge voice in the wilderness.

[Christians4LessGvt]

UP McCain just named RON PAUL his VP
Now whats ya gonna do?
 

[Universe Prince]

Fine, work on the solution. The problem is you won't be able to implement it sitting over there stroking it. You have to become part of the process. Until then, unfortunately, you're just a fridge voice in the wilderness.

A fridge voice? I know, typo, I know. Still, it's funny.

I don't know why you keep assuming that the plan is to sit in the corner. That I'm not supporting McCain doesn't mean nothing is being done.