McCain's pastor a sharp contrast to Obama's

[_JS]

"Logically I even asked one of our members to point out in specific quotes
where the racism was. I received no answer beyond a trite cliche"

JS not sure who you asked the earlier question to, but I would consider this a
racist statement "White folks' greed runs a world in need," but before we
get into some long parsing of words over what constitutes a racist, to me it's
not so much that Rev Wright's words fit the exact defintion of a racism, it is more
that Rev Wright is racially divisive.
 
JS the reason it is an issue and I think rightfully so is because one of Obama's
campaign themes appears to be that we as a country need to move beyond race.
That color shouldn't matter. That Obama will in some way bring people of all colors together.

But while Obama is campaigning on "racial harmony" we find out Obama freely chose
to attend a church for the last 20 years with a pastor that screams racially divisive
hurtful things from the pulpit. The guy spewing the racially divisive stuff from the
pulpit was Obama's mentor, he performed Obama's wedding, he baptized Obama's
kids. This was not a casual relationship.

Do these kinds of statements "bring people together" or divide them?

"wants us to sing God bless America. No, no, no, not God bless America, God damn America

The hurricane exposed the hypocrisy," Rev. Wright said,
"protecting white folks' property took priority over saving black folks' lives."

"For every one Condoskeeza [sic] Rice

"The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color.

So is it really a surprise that a campaign of "racial harmony"
doesn't jive with Obama sitting there for 20 years listening to
the racially divisive rants of Rev Wright? I think it is not out of
the question that people are honestly concerned about Obama's
judgement and sincerity?

As far as I know Obama never once condemned any of the remarks until it
became an issue in this campaign. Now Obama has condemned some of
Rev Wrights views/comments. Obviously Obama thinks something was wrong,
so honestly JS, why did Obama wait so long?

To me you can't have it "both ways".

Those eager to dismiss this I wonder if they honestly can say that if President Bush
campaigned on a pro-gay rights agenda but then at the same time had
attended a church for 20 years, where the preacher performed his wedding,
had the preacher baptize the Bush twins, the preacher was his mentor, but the
preacher spewed divisive, hateful and demeaning things about gays from the
pulpit and you can say it wouldn't be an issue?

btw: JS For the time being I am just going to converse with you
on this particular post since I was answering your post. I know there will be those
that will find some word parsing(define "is") type of stuff they will want to debate
for hours and I just dont have the time to get into 10 different sub arguments of
long word parsing contests with those that enjoy that.

I appreciate the reply CU4.

I have no interest in getting into a debate on semantics either so let's avoid that.

JS the reason it is an issue and I think rightfully so is because one of Obama's
campaign themes appears to be that we as a country need to move beyond race.
That color shouldn't matter. That Obama will in some way bring people of all colors together.

But while Obama is campaigning on "racial harmony" we find out Obama freely chose
to attend a church for the last 20 years with a pastor that screams racially divisive
hurtful things from the pulpit. The guy spewing the racially divisive stuff from the
pulpit was Obama's mentor, he performed Obama's wedding, he baptized Obama's
kids. This was not a casual relationship.

First, does it really matter what minister performs the wedding of a candidate or baptizes his or her children? In fairness, this is a candidate who some (note the word "some) have slandered as being a Muslim and not a Christian at all. And yes I say slandered because that was the intention of those who made that claim. Now many of those same individuals freely admit that the man is a Protestant Christian, but his pastor is not the right kind of pastor.

I cannot speak for the denominations of the Protestant tradition (I imagine it differs with the various ones) but the Catholic Church recognizes any baptism performed with the Trinitarian formula. It does not have to be performed by a minister and in fact it does not have to be performed by a Christian (though that is rare). Again, for Catholics, marriage is one of the seven sacraments (as is Baptism). Yet, it is not so much a matter of who performs the marriage as the couple that is involved. They confer grace upon one another (though for validity a priest must be there and it should be in the church blah, blah, blah). To get to the point, I'm not seeing much of an issue with who married the Obama's and who baptised their children.

Is their an issue of racial division? I think the real question is: does Obama really believe the message of racial unity that he campaigns on? Obviously that is a question for the individual voters to determine.

Racial division exists right now. Detroit is primarily African-American and the per-capita income is somewhere around $14K. Go to Auburn Hills and see what the per-capita income of this primarily white suburb of Detroit is. Memphis is primarily African-American and the per-capita income is around $17K yet nearby Germantown which is 97% white has a per-capita income of nearly $98K. So, does racial division exist? You better believe it. If you think Jeremiah Wright invented it, you're dead wrong.

In almost every economic and health statistic the African-American community is well behind. While white Americans have enjoyed low unemployment, African-Americans have faced nearly double-digit. They've faced higher poverty rates, especially in the cities I mentioned and many more. They have far worse public schools for their children.

So my question is: why shouldn't blacks be angry about this? Why should they sit around and talk about harmony and how wonderful the country is - when clearly it isn't so great and has honestly never been that great for their history?

[_JS]

Js wants to largely ignore all the comments and segregation advocacy by the good Reverend as not really racist.  I differ.  I see anything that pushes 1 race greater than another as racist.  I see anything that pushes for segregation by race, as racist.  I see anyone that tries to blame all their trials & tribulations on another race as racist.

You are the one I spoke of. You posted a large set of quotes and not once made a specific example of racism.

[Christians4LessGvt]

JS, I agree the baptism is not a bombshell.

The only reason I mention it is taken with all the other things like the wedding,
the donations, the 20 year church membership, the mentoring, it builds a case
that Obama was very close with Rev. Wright for a very long time. It makes one
wonder why he stayed or didn't condemn until now? It creates some doubt
about Obama's sincerity or who the man really is. I am not saying it disqualifies
him, I am saying it is a real issue that honest non-partision voters will be thinking
about. I think some of the "Rock Star" has been dimmed and maybe thats a good thing.

Sure African Americans have things to be angry about.

In fact I have just for fun on several occassions argued that they deserve reparations.
It's a discussion I enjoy because it in many ways throws me into a different pigeonhole.
I am not sure reparations would solve much, but in many ways I can see the justification.
I think most whites really don't get it, but in most cases it's not intentional.

You hit the nail on the head with this:
does Obama really believe the message of racial unity that he campaigns on?
Obviously that is a question for the individual voters to determine.

JS you and I know that I am biased, like pretty much all of us are, but I tell you
that there is some sincere doubt in my mind that Obama really believes the
"message of racial unity" that he campaigns on. He may, he may not, but
I get the impression his wife and his minister are "infatuated with race"
and I don't think that is a good thing for our President. It will be interesting
to watch during the campaign and very interesting if he gets elected.

[sirs]

Js wants to largely ignore all the comments and segregation advocacy by the good Reverend as not really racist.  I differ.  I see anything that pushes 1 race greater than another as racist.  I see anything that pushes for segregation by race, as racist.  I see anyone that tries to blame all their trials & tribulations on another race as racist.

You are the one I spoke of. You posted a large set of quotes and not once made a specific example of racism.

I realize I was the one you were referring to, and if you couldn't find anything racist in any of those quotes, simply reinforces my above comment

[_JS]

JS, I agree the baptism is not a bombshell.

The only reason I mention it is taken with all the other things like the wedding,
the donations, the 20 year church membership, the mentoring, it builds a case
that Obama was very close with Rev. Wright for a very long time. It makes one
wonder why he stayed or didn't condemn until now? It creates some doubt
about Obama's sincerity or who the man really is. I am not saying it disqualifies
him, I am saying it is a real issue that honest non-partision voters will be thinking
about. I think some of the "Rock Star" has been dimmed and maybe thats a good thing.

Sure African Americans have things to be angry about.

In fact I have just for fun on several occassions argued that they deserve reparations.
It's a discussion I enjoy because it in many ways throws me into a different pigeonhole.
I am not sure reparations would solve much, but in many ways I can see the justification.
I think most whites really don't get it, but in most cases it's not intentional.

You hit the nail on the head with this:
does Obama really believe the message of racial unity that he campaigns on?
Obviously that is a question for the individual voters to determine.

JS you and I know that I am biased, like pretty much all of us are, but I tell you
that there is some sincere doubt in my mind that Obama really believes the
"message of racial unity" that he campaigns on. He may, he may not, but
I get the impression his wife and his minister are "infatuated with race"
and I don't think that is a good thing for our President. It will be interesting
to watch during the campaign and very interesting if he gets elected.

I don't think we disagree all that much on this CU4 (wow, never thought I'd type those words ).

The important question that we narrowed down is being obscured by negative campaigning from different groups who want to see Obama fail. And if we are honest there is a segment of white Americans who are unsettled by the idea of a black president. Is that racism? Again, that is probably heading towards an argument on semantics and that's a road that does not interest either of us. It is certainly not the blatant racism that we saw in the 50's and 60's from various groups.

I think Obama is a completely new idea for American voters. He is an African-American candidate as well as someone who speaks for a new generation of American voters. His experiences are his own, just as McCain's military experiences are his own and Clinton's insider White House experiences are her own. None of those are completely good or completely bad.

[Christians4LessGvt]

I don't think we disagree all that much on this CU4 (wow, never thought I'd type those words  ).

Thats funny!

And if we are honest there is a segment of white Americans who are unsettled by
the idea of a black president.

Oh I agree.
I don't understand it, but I agree.
I would vote for Alan Keyes, Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, ect in a heartbeat.
I have a friend that is a social liberal and fiscal conservative.
He could be described as a "country boy".
And he tells me he would never consider voting for a black for president.
I was like "David, if you agreed with them on every issue why not?"
He just said "because I couldn't trust them".

Is that racism?

Oh I think it is.
and also fear
i guess fear and racism are intertwined as well.

JS I have a question though.
You and everybody else say Obama is African American.
I am not denying he is or isn't.
I am just curious about that statement.
Why is Obama African American if his mother is white?
Is it because he has African American features?
Is that what we base it on?
I honesty don't know?

[Xavier_Onassis]

Why is Obama African American if his mother is white?
Is it because he has African American features?
Is that what we base it on?
I honesty don't know?



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is the old rule: if you have one drop of Black blood, you are Black.
The new rule is that if you have recognizeable Balck features, you are Black.

The name Black was replaced by the name Negro. Then Negro was replaced with the word Colored, then Colored peoiple decided to return to calling themselves Black. Some people preferred the term Afro-America", but it never became as popular as Black, Negro or Colored. In the last four years or son Black was replaced with the term "African American".

These are all the same people.

If you look White, but have some claim to some Black ancestor, you can be accepted as Black, like Paula Abdul or Mariah Carey.

White people prefer almost white Black female celebrities, like Beyonc? or Vanessa Williams. Male Black celebrities tend to be more successful if they are darker.

This might explain why Wesley Snipes gets better roles than Sinbad.
Michael Jackson's attempts to resemble Judy Garland, a White woman, were widely ridiculed by everyone.

Janet Jackson was also unconvincing, but less so. No one wanted to believe that she (or anyone)  regularly wore nipple jewelry, but now hardly anyone remembers that incident.

[Amianthus]

Janet Jackson was also unconvincing, but less so. No one wanted to believe that she (or anyone)  regularly wore nipple jewelry, but now hardly anyone remembers that incident.

I have many friends that regularly wear nipple jewelry. Male and female.

[sirs]

TMI...TMI     

[Christians4LessGvt]

"The new rule is that if you have recognizeable Balck features, you are Black"

so XO if i grow dreadlocks i can qualify as a minority business?

[fatman]

I have many friends that regularly wear nipple jewelry. Male and female.

I find it unattractive, personally.  But whatever floats their boat, I know people that think it is very attractive.

[Amianthus]

I find it unattractive, personally.  But whatever floats their boat, I know people that think it is very attractive.

Yeah, I got a few friends that are really into body modification. Piercings (everywhere), scarification, tattoos, etc.

[_JS]

Is that racism?

Oh I think it is.
and also fear
i guess fear and racism are intertwined as well.

JS I have a question though.
You and everybody else say Obama is African American.
I am not denying he is or isn't.
I am just curious about that statement.
Why is Obama African American if his mother is white?
Is it because he has African American features?
Is that what we base it on?
I honesty don't know?

It is partly what one associates one's own cultural heritage with and how one is recieved by that culture. For example, the United States is filled with "plastic Paddies", which are Americans of distant Irish (sometimes actually Scots-Irish) ancestry who consider themselves Irish. Are they Irish? No. They clearly aren't Irish in culture and you could not place them in Ireland and have them blend in to that society.

Ultimately it is irrelevant to a point where class will become the overriding factor and race, creed, national origin will be insignificant. Yet, we're not to that point.

[sirs]

And the rhetoric coming from messers Wright, Sharpton, and JJ, do largely the polar opposite of making race an irrelevent factor, in today's dialog

[Xavier_Onassis]

so XO if i grow dreadlocks i can qualify as a minority business?

=========================================================
I doubt that you would qualify for a business.

Those be some ugly dreadlocks!

But I am not in charge of approvng anyone for any minority business. You would have to go elsewhere to apply.

I don't think hair counts, since there are so many people, especially women, who wear someone else's hair on their heads. My guess is that for every appearence that Beyonc? makes, four or five North Korean, Mongolian, or Chinese women have a boyish haircut.

 I was simply explaining the various terminology by which Black people have been known.

I have never seen anyone wearing nipple jewelry, nor have I seen nipple jewelry on display. I frequent many yard sales, and have seen a lot of other weird things, but perhaps I have led a sheltered life. Or at least one sheltered from niple jewelry.

I am pretty sure, now that I think about it, that I could find a variety of nipple jewelry on the Internet, however. I confess that I have never actually been interested.

I was thinking that Janet Jackson has become around five shades lighter than she was back in the day, but she did not go on and bleach herself into a Scandinavian complexion which I deem wise on her part.

Women bleaching their skin seems to be more acceptable than men doing this. Nearly every hair care store that caters to Black women has an entire shelf dedicated to various brands and types of skin bleaches.