Author Topic: What da heck is a "Mormon" anyway?  (Read 5597 times)

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Stray Pooch

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What da heck is a "Mormon" anyway?
« on: April 20, 2008, 12:08:26 PM »
All of the buzz about the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints lately has prompted questions about polygamy among Mormons and how the "Mormon Church" is related to the FLDS church.  I think most people get (because many outlets have taken the trouble to point out) that the "mainstream" church and this particular sect are not the same, but a lot of people think that we are sympathetic to, or wink at, the kinds of behavior going on in the sect.  Since I am the token Mormon on this site, I figured I'd shed  little light on the subject.

First of all, "Mormon" is not the correct name for a member of my church.  In fact, it got its start as a derogatory term.  "Mormon Church" is not an appropriate term.  Because of 175 years of usage, the term "Mormon" has become acceptable under certain circumstances  (see the following link for its uses).  http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/style-guide  We don't get bent out of shape over it, but really calling me a "Mormon" is about the same as calling a Muslim a "Mohammedan."

That said, to understand where my church differs from other sects with a common starting point, let me give a brief history of the church and its splinter groups.

Joseph Smith, Jr. founded "The Church of Christ" (by that name) on April 6, 1830.  Today there are several groups that claim to come from that church.  By that name choice we mean that the original church that Christ established 2000 years ago became corrupted over time and that Joseph Smith, Jr. actually 'restored" the original church.  So we are, we believe, the original church restored.

Several years later, the name of the church was modified to "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints."  The addition of "Latter Day Saints" was a distinction.  Practically speaking, there were several churches that called themselves the "Church of Christ" or something similar and were in no way related to our church.  Further,  in discussing the gospel, it is sometimes necessary to distinguish between the restored church and the original church.  As an example, when people ask "Was Peter a Mormon?" the answer is yes and no.  He was not, of course, a member of the restored church since he did not live in this dispensation (a term which in this context means, at its simplest, a particular era in time).  Yet he was a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, and as we claim to be the restored church, he can be said to be a member of the same church we are.  "Latter Day Saints" is a term describing those people who are members of the restored church.  This is as opposed to "Ancient Day Saints" or members of the original church.  "Saints" in this context refers to all who follow Christ, not to certain specific "holy" persons such as Apostles, martyrs and the like.  Though I am no "saint,"  I am, nevertheless a Saint.  So the "LDS" portion of our name comes from that distinction, but the IMPORTANT part of our name is the Church of Jesus Christ.  That's why we try to avoid calling ourselves "Mormons" or using the inappropriate shortcut "The Church of the Latter Day Saints."

So the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints continued with this name until 1844, the year that Joseph Smith was martyred.  At his death, a dispute arose about succession in the Presidency.  The church leadership consisted of a First Presidency, with the President (Prophet) and two counselors, and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.   Joseph had stated that the "keys" to the kingdom would be passed on to the Quorum of the Twelve at his death.  But disputes arose anyway.  Some believed that his counselors should become his successors like a Vice President might take over for the President in our government.  Some believed that the mantle of Prophet should fall on his son, Joseph Smith III.  Others believed Brigham Young, as President of the Quorum of the Twelve, should assume the Presidency of the Church. 

This confusion resulted in the first split in the church.  Several splinter groups were formed.  Among those, the most prominent was the group that followed Joseph Smith's wife and son back to Jackson County Missouri.  At some point, there was apparently a court decision made (according to this group) that gave legal succession to Joseph Smith III and made it the legitimate successor.  For some reason, this group decided to change its name to "The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints."  By that name it no longer exists.  It split into at least two factions sometime within the last decade or so and now that name remains in the legal custody of "The Community of Christ" which downplays its "Mormon" roots and has more traditional Christian beliefs.  The other group "The Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" sticks to its roots, with family members of Joseph Smith still in charge to this day, as far as I know.  Neither of these groups EVER went to Utah or practiced polygamy.  They reject outright the idea that Joseph Smith revealed or practiced polygamy.

The rest of the "Mormons" (so called, incidentally, because in addition to the Bible we believe in the "Book of Mormon" a compilation of Ancient American writings abridged by the Prophet Mormon) united behind Brigham Young and moved to Utah.  They retained the name "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" and became the church that today most people know.  After arrival in Utah, the practice of polygamy became public and fierce opposition to the practice began to appear.  Much of it was based on the same sort of concerns that people have about the FLDS sect today.  The idea was that women were being forced to marry against their will and this isolated sect had all sorts of evil things going on.  In reality only a small percentage of the members of the church were actually involved in polygamy.  But some dissidents claimed to have been forced into these marriages against their will, or seeing others who were, and public outrage was inflamed.  Personally, I have no problem believing that some of this was true.  After all, women (especially in those less enlightened times) were often forced into marriages by unscrupulous men in the monogamous world. (Think of the caricature of the villain tying the poor girl to the railroad tracks to force her into marriage.)  Polygamy would be an even bigger opportunity for that sort of abuse.   But largely, polygamy was just a lifestyle practiced by Mormons much as it has been in other cultures and times throughout the world.

The people, and ultimately the government, however, could not tolerate this behavior.  Over several years, the government did more and more to stop the practice.  Statehood was denied to "Deseret" (eventually named Utah for the Ute Indians) while polygamy was in practice.  Prosecution against church leaders was started.  Brigham Young was removed as territorial governor and an unpopular government representative was put in his place.  He claimed that the Mormons were rebelling against him.  US troops were sent to Utah to quell the "Mormon uprising" and the US Army still has a battle streamer on its flag for the "Mormon war."  (Some say, incidentally,  that future Confederate General Johnston was actually using the Mormon issue as an excuse to get pro-Southern forces in place in Utah for a drive to California in the event of a secession.)  Though only token harrassment occurred, passions were high.  The US Congress passed laws disenfranchising the Church and its members.   Ultimately, the US Supreme Court under Chief Justice Morrison Waite ruled that laws against polygamy were not a violation of religious freedom. 

Eventually, the church was forced to stop polygamy.  But many claimed the practice was still ongoing.  So in 1890, the President of the Church, Wilford Woodruff, officially announced that polygamy was no longer supported by the church and that all plural marriages must be stopped immediately.  This "Official Declaration" eventually was adopted into the standard works of the church and became scripture. (See http://scriptures.lds.org/en/od/1  ).  Future polygamous marriages would result in excommunication of the guilty parties.  As a result, the government stopped prosecutions against church members and restored the rights and property of the church.  Utah became a state in 1896.  Additionally, the government tactily agreed to turn a blind eye on those people ALREADY in plural marriages, figuring that the practice would die a natural death within a generation and that creating, effectively, a large group of widows and orphans was not a great idea.  So while no polygamous marriages were performed after 1890, the lifestyle continued for a while afterwards among church members.

Several people, however, thought that President Woodruff had become a "fallen" prophet.  So other spinter groups were formed.  Many of them broke away immediately, others took decades before the split. (I'm guessing these latter were the sons and daughters of those original plural marriages who had grown up in the lifestyle - and probably more than a few oportunists.)  Several groups collectively referred to as "Fundamentalists" faced off against each other, pitting prophet against prophet.  Many became violent within themselves and against competing polygamist sects.  There were even a few attacks against the now non-polygamist mainstream church.  Zealous prosecution of polygamists was no longer a priority, but when violence became a problem law enforcement came into play. 

Some people feel like mainstream Mormons refrained from prosecuting polygamists out of sympathy for the lifestyle or because we secretly approve of the practice.  That comes from the habit of associating polygamy with the Church.  Polygamy is only a very minor factor in church doctrine.  We have gotten along very well without it for well over a century.  We do not condone or wink at such behavior.  More importantly, a far more vital component of LDS doctrine is proper authority.  The President of of the FLDS church claims to be a prophet, in direct succession (through John Taylor, third President of the main church) of Joseph Smith, Jr.    That places him in direct opposition to Thomas S. Monson, and all of the Presidents of the Church from Wilford Woodruff on.  Further, whoever his predecessors in the Presidency of that sect are would be in a similar position.  Even if we somehow approved of, or viewed as harmless the sects practices, we would have no affinity with a sect we consider apostate for a much more important reason.   As far as any law enforcement agencies that might have mainstream Mormons as members, they would not view the sect with any sympathy.  As far as the church itself (the mainstream church, that is) we would have no authority whatsoever over that sect.  They do not acknowledge us in any way, except as apostates from the "true" church, and we believe them to be in pretty much the same condition. 

Obviously, even if there are those who view polygamy of itself as a matter of cultural difference, when it involves twelve-year olds (and, if we can believe one former member of the church, even molestation of boys) it is a far more serious situation.  In this day and age if three or more consenting adults choose to live together, irrespective of gender or lifestyle, it's getting to the point of anything goes.  But when one of the members of this sort of "marriage" is barely a teenager, it is time to draw the line.  I will say, however, that the wholesale dismantling of numerous families and the incredibly intrusive manner in which it is being done looks more like a witchhunt than a rescue mission.  It may be that this sort of thing is warranted, given that it appears that the sect and its leadership condones forced marriage of children and other sexual perversions.  But given the history of government interference in religion in general and Mormonism in particular, I'm more than a little skeptical about how much of this is truth and how much is crusading. 

Nevertheless, given that there are so many churches (many with very similar names) who have widely varying beliefs, people (quite understandably) think that we are either one and the same or just different facets of a single idea.  The church is relatively young.  The same sort of splintering has occurred with our religion as with mainstream Christianity (of which our sect is just another "spin off") and other faiths.  Calling an FLDS person a "Mormon" is much like calling a Lutheran a Catholic.  Our roots are the same, but we are not the same faith at all. 

One could argue (and some have) that making such a distinction is much like mainstream Christians claiming that Mormons are not Christians.  It's a valid point, but there is a difference.  Those Christians who disclaim Mormons as not "true" Christians are talking about spiritual beliefs.  They don't generally care that we don't use alcohol, tobacco or coffee.  They probably approve, in principle, of our paying of tithes, prohibiting extramarital sex or keeping the sabbath holy.  It is our beliefs about God, scripture and other spiritual matters that define our faith to them - and that is fair.  We reject FLDS and other splinter groups as part of our faith not because of the spiritual aspects.  We may not doctrinally agree with those sects - or other Christian faiths for that matter - but we believe ALL churches have some truth.  We would view the FLDS church as doctrinally no different from other sects.  It is their practices that concern us.  We disagree, often strongly, with Baptist philosophy, but we do not view their practices as un-Christian.  We believe Baptists, Catholics, Presbyterians, Lutherans and all of those other sects are Christian, though we differ with them on matters of doctrine.  But when a sect engages in clearly un-Christian behavior - that Westover Baptist group comes to mind - it is not their doctrines but their behaviors that call for denunciation.  The eternal state of FLDS members is a matter for God to decide, and each member is an individual.   Whatever their sins, Christ's atonement is available to them, as it is for all mankind.  But as I am sure many Baptists wish to clarify that they do not condone or wish to be associated with the nutcases at Westover, we feel similarly about the FLDS sect.  Just because we share part of a name does NOT mean we are the same, or even sympathetic.

Here endeth the lesson.   
« Last Edit: April 20, 2008, 12:17:16 PM by Stray Pooch »
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Universe Prince

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Re: What da heck is a "Mormon" anyway?
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2008, 01:32:35 PM »
There you go again, doing that whole elucidation thing. Why can't you just leave us with our mistaken notions of Mormons as a weirdo cult with funny ideas about underwear. You just had to chime in and try to make people understand, didn't you? Oh, and you couldn't just rattle off some half thought out ramble either, you had to explain it all in a well written manner. What the heck is wrong with you?

(Yeah, it's backwards. I think it's funny. I should also add that I'm functioning on 2 hours of sleep and 40 hours of stress. So your individual experience may vary.)
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Cynthia

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Re: What da heck is a "Mormon" anyway?
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2008, 01:58:57 PM »
Well, I love to read the Poochie man. Gawd,  You are indeed a brilliant writer!

Of course, I believe that Catholics are the true Christians. ;)

Peter on that rock.... :)

Thanks for the history lesson. Fantastic read.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: What da heck is a "Mormon" anyway?
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2008, 08:12:05 PM »
The Fundy Mormon bunch in Texas seems to be distinguished by the most unstylish dresses currently worn in the US. They make even the Amish look stylish. I am not sure of this, but judging from the women who were interviewed on TV, it also seems that at some point in the initiation to this church, everyone must be whacked with an Ugly Stick.

I am opposed to arranged marriages in general, and arranged marriages of minor girls in particular. It also seems that another necessity of one aged whiskerando having five or six wives is that a large number of young boys are thrown out of the church with little or no education of employable skills, which is also at least as bad, and an even greater burden on the rest of us taxpayers.

They have a right to ugly clothes and faces, but the rest needs to be addressed, really.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Stray Pooch

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Re: What da heck is a "Mormon" anyway?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2008, 09:52:04 PM »
There you go again, doing that whole elucidation thing. Why can't you just leave us with our mistaken notions of Mormons as a weirdo cult with funny ideas about underwear.

Well, if it helps, my ideas about underwear are hilarious.

You just had to chime in and try to make people understand, didn't you? Oh, and you couldn't just rattle off some half thought out ramble either, you had to explain it all in a well written manner. What the heck is wrong with you?

It's a serious case of hyperchronomanitis.  (Too much time on my hands.)  I love making up words - as if I don't use enough already.  :D
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

Stray Pooch

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Re: What da heck is a "Mormon" anyway?
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2008, 09:54:17 PM »
Well, I love to read the Poochie man. Gawd,  You are indeed a brilliant writer!

Of course, I believe that Catholics are the true Christians. ;)

Peter on that rock.... :)

Thanks for the history lesson. Fantastic read.

So if the Catholic church were to start a cable network that broadcast mass 24 hours a day would that be Rock Around the Clock?  :D
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

Stray Pooch

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Re: What da heck is a "Mormon" anyway?
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2008, 09:59:38 PM »
The Fundy Mormon bunch in Texas seems to be distinguished by the most unstylish dresses currently worn in the US. They make even the Amish look stylish. I am not sure of this, but judging from the women who were interviewed on TV, it also seems that at some point in the initiation to this church, everyone must be whacked with an Ugly Stick.

Apparently they are attractive enough to the FLDS guys that they can't stop at just one. . .

Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

Universe Prince

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Re: What da heck is a "Mormon" anyway?
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2008, 10:28:55 PM »

Apparently they are attractive enough to the FLDS guys that they can't stop at just one. . .


And the ad at the bottom of this page as I read that is "Meet Mormon Women". And the three pictured look kinda cute.

Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

Cynthia

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Re: What da heck is a "Mormon" anyway?
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2008, 11:16:55 PM »
Well, I love to read the Poochie man. Gawd,  You are indeed a brilliant writer!

Of course, I believe that Catholics are the true Christians. ;)

Peter on that rock.... :)

Thanks for the history lesson. Fantastic read.

So if the Catholic church were to start a cable network that broadcast mass 24 hours a day would that be Rock Around the Clock?  :D

LOL....YEP....There is a program on EWTN --Life On The Rock.... I do think that there are varying degress of  "TRUE Christians", Poochie....not just Catholics. Indeed, everyone thinks "their faith" is the best and only faith.

Only God will tell in the end ;)

Cynthia
« Last Edit: April 21, 2008, 12:25:28 PM by Cynthia »

Plane

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Re: What da heck is a "Mormon" anyway?
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2008, 12:12:13 AM »
Is the FLDS church very diffrent from the organisation as it was with Brigam Young?

Stray Pooch

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Re: What da heck is a "Mormon" anyway?
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2008, 02:03:19 AM »
Is the FLDS church very diffrent from the organisation as it was with Brigam Young?

Good question.  There were many differences.  Brigham Young and the original church was forced into isolation for its own protection.  Long before polygamy became common knowledge Latter Day Saints were persecuted, prosecuted and even ordered exterminated for their religious beliefs, their political and economic power.  FLDS chose to isolate itself because of its practices - which aside from polygamy apparently include child molestation.  Nobody was trying to kill them, steal their lands or rape their women (except their own men, if the charges are true).  They have little economic or political clout.  The only legitimate concern they have is that the government would prosecute them for polygamy. 

Moreover, if the charges we hear are true (and I keep an open mind on that issue) widespread molestation and forced marriages of young girls and even molestation of boys is happening.  Now the one young man who made this latter allegation (as far as I have seen) implicated Warren Jeffs and this might be a case of one isolated pervert who happens to have gained a position of power.  It might even be someone making untrue claims - stranger things have happened.  But the man seemed credible.  So at least the leader is engaging in decidedly un-Christian behaviors - and certainly nothing Joseph Smith or Brigham Young ever preached.

The comparison, though, does have some validity.  The Saints in Utah were, effectively, an isolated group (especially since the mass media we have today was unavailable).  They practiced polygamy and appeared quite secretive, to the point of paranoia.  But given the persecution they were going through and the mob violence they had suffered in three different states - including the murder of their prophet - that attitude was rational.  Even the government was no help to them - in fact, even before the polygamy issue it was often a large part of the problem.  They had a charismatic, powerful leader who practiced what most people considered to be a perverse lifestyle.   They were quite prepared to follow that leader's bidding, even if it meant going to war.  That is one of the reasons why many historians who do not believe that Brigham young was directly responsible for Mountain Meadows still believe that he is culpable or at least tacitly condoned it by not acting.  They find it hard to believe something so significant was going down and Brother Brigham was unaware of it. 

But on the other hand, they were not seeking to disassociate themselves with mainstream society.  They enlisted a Battalion to join the US Army and go to the Mexican war, though that became moot by the time they arrived on the scene.  They invited journalists and others to visit them.  They conducted trade with travelers passing through Utah.  The reason for their isolation, as I said, was a very real need for security.  Moreover, the style of dress and behavior they exhibited was not strange for the time.  They engaged in normal social activities such as dances, concerts and shows.  The communities they built were not isolated compounds, but cities open to all. 

I have discovered no evidence that there was an ugly stick involved in early church rituals, but since they were out in the middle of nowhere it probably wouldn't have mattered to the men . . .

 
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

Brassmask

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Re: What da heck is a "Mormon" anyway?
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2008, 10:13:22 AM »
Pretty interesting info there, Pooch.

Thanks!




PS On a personal note, I was flipping through my Itunes the other day re-packing my Shuffle and ran across "Oz's Lion".  Brought back some nice memories.

B

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: What da heck is a "Mormon" anyway?
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2008, 05:39:31 PM »
I have discovered no evidence that there was an ugly stick involved in early church rituals, but since they were out in the middle of nowhere it probably wouldn't have mattered to the men . . .
==========================================================================
I would think that way out in the middle of nowhere, belly dancing costumes and otherr provocative garb might be favored. But apparently not. Apparently, FLDS women prefer hideous shapeless garments and feel that God and their shared hubby appreciates them more when they forgo makeup of all sorts.

I have always been of the opinion that there is some point (not normally ever reached where I live) where a woman is so ugly that a young sheep, goat or cow might be more tempting. Or even a man or boy. At this point, there should be some glamorization of the female population or the colony simply expires for lack of progeny.

Perhaps the ageing FLDS elders have poor eyesight and cannot see that their many wives are less attractive than Woody Allen or Arnold Stang, or perhaps they just put a bag over their heads and procreate that way. Maybe they turn off the lights. Who knows?

There are mysteries within this rather weirdo cult that could only be answered by ones living there.


 
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Stray Pooch

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Re: What da heck is a "Mormon" anyway?
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2008, 06:25:43 PM »
Pretty interesting info there, Pooch.

Thanks!

PS On a personal note, I was flipping through my Itunes the other day re-packing my Shuffle and ran across "Oz's Lion".  Brought back some nice memories.

B

Glad you found it interesting, Brass. 

Oz's Lion was a fun song for me to try to write.  I think the closest it came to Prince was Martin Prince from the Simpsons, but it was a fun set of lyrics to play with, and nice to step out of my style. 

How is Many Hands coming along?  Have you done any more films?  Or has the position of family man slowed down the process? :D
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

Stray Pooch

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Re: What da heck is a "Mormon" anyway?
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2008, 06:29:11 PM »
I have discovered no evidence that there was an ugly stick involved in early church rituals, but since they were out in the middle of nowhere it probably wouldn't have mattered to the men . . .
==========================================================================
I would think that way out in the middle of nowhere, belly dancing costumes and otherr provocative garb might be favored. But apparently not. Apparently, FLDS women prefer hideous shapeless garments and feel that God and their shared hubby appreciates them more when they forgo makeup of all sorts.

I have always been of the opinion that there is some point (not normally ever reached where I live) where a woman is so ugly that a young sheep, goat or cow might be more tempting. Or even a man or boy. At this point, there should be some glamorization of the female population or the colony simply expires for lack of progeny.

Perhaps the ageing FLDS elders have poor eyesight and cannot see that their many wives are less attractive than Woody Allen or Arnold Stang, or perhaps they just put a bag over their heads and procreate that way. Maybe they turn off the lights. Who knows?

There are mysteries within this rather weirdo cult that could only be answered by ones living there.



No mystery at all.  To some men the sole qualification for a snuggling partner is the presence of the word "yes" in her vocabulary.

Of course, even that doesn't seem to have been required in some of these cases. . .

btw.  Dude.  Sheep?   You are one baaaaaaad boy.
Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .