Author Topic: ?Never Again? Nation  (Read 3705 times)

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Religious Dick

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?Never Again? Nation
« on: May 12, 2008, 05:47:29 AM »
?Never Again? Nation
Posted by Christopher Roach on April 15, 2008

Our view of what kind of nation we are is related to the question of ?nationalism.? Are we a normal nation?  A ?creedal? nation?  An ?exceptional? nation?  For many on the left and the neoconservative right, America is only authentic and just when it uses its immense power in a selfless ideological struggle on behalf of the powerless. This view of the West is a major influence on the neoconservatives, whose historical memory finds an especially important turn in 1939. For them, this is the year when the West, and America in particular, became morally suspect by failing to help European Jews by putting down the dreaded old nationalist forces that the neconservatives? parents had recently fled.

A surefire way to get American politicians to take notice of some problem in the world is to be told it?s a Second Holocaust. Americans and Europeans meekly accept the charge from the Nazi?s Jewish victims that this episode was as much a moral failing of ?bystanders? as it was the responsibility of the perpetrators themselves, and that therefore the whole world should stand united in the future when such events occur. We are told that a surplus of nationalism leads to selfishness and indifference and that ultimately such feelings lead to the greatest symbol of evil in the Western World. Post-national states must intervene, militarily if need be, so that such an atrocity would happen ?never again.? Neoconservatism?s twists and turns may best be explained as follows: their views of American national identity and foreign policy must always yield an interventionist and open borders response to the events of 1939; all other views must be rejected as inadequate.

They?ve made some headway with this critique, because the Holocaust is the chief agreed-upon symbol of evil in the moral imagination of the Western World. And this symbol is sometimes used, particularly by the far left, to show the fundamental moral failings of the Western World (as opposed to showing the failings only of some of its members). For them, the Holocaust is the Evil Western World?s apotheosis, the culmination of the crusades, witch burnings, slavery, pogroms, mistreatment of indigenous peoples, etc. Of course, we all agree that this evil event should not happen to this group again.

But much more is required.

Equality and nondiscrimination demand that one puts the citizenship of one?s countrymen on an equal plane with that of strangers. The measure of our worth will not be the advancement of something so parochial as our national security and commonwealth, but, rather, will consist only in the elimination of any distinction between ourselves and the other. This distinction is supposedly the root of all discrimination, all racism, all ethnocentrism, and, by implication, is the root of the Holocaust itself. The neoconservative and idealist agenda is as much a test of our own moral integrity and commitment, as it is a formula for political and foreign policy.

For the neoconservatives? conservatism is not about conserving anything tangible and historical. It is, instead, about the march of abstractions: Free Markets, Democracy, Color Blindness, Tolerance. America can be defined as a few slogans. Under this grandiose philosophy, a government?s role is not to advance the parochial and particular good of America, even when its interest is as basic as self-defence. It?s instead to support the triumph of these universal values. We all are being asked to take one for the team. And the team is not our country. The team is the whole human race, which would supposedly recoil in horror if we behaved like a normal, self-interested society.

Why else have we not done more to deport illegals after 9/11? Why else hasn?t Bush spoken out forcefully about the Muslim overreaction to a few cartoons in an obscure Danish paper? Why else do people in other nations (such as Nigerian Christians) react so differently and more predictably compared to Westerners when they?re harassed by Muslim minorities? Why else do we help Muslims in Kosovo and Iraq, when it?s so obvious these people are hostile to us, our religion (or what?s left of it), and our way of life?

Like so much else in liberalism, our objective decline and endangerment is described as the march of universal justice. Our meek defenses are recast as offensive ?attacks.? This is why James Burnham called liberalism an ?ideology of western suicide.? It functions to redefine our destruction as a good thing that we should welcome. This decline serves another function, a spiritual function.  We can take solace in our decline as atonement for our participation in a crime that is widely reputed to be the worst in human history, the moral dagger at the heart of the Western World?s pretensions of morality.

Let?s consider reality, though. Gallantry, heroism, and expensive support for strangers are simply too much to ask from the general lot of nations. It?s an unrealistic demand that misdiagnoses the roots of the Holocaust--revolutionary ideology and disregard for Christian limits on state action--while it also misunderstands the real costs that such a ?do gooder? ideology imposes not only on one?s own citizens but on foreigners too.

Because when ?nations? stop wars and genocides, they do not do so collectively. It is their soldiers, whose interests are a public trust. When ?nations? take on refugees, it is not the nation, but individuals and communities that are affected. It is Newark and Wausau and Minneapolis who must absorb the Central American, Hmong, and Somali refugees respectively. Acts of generosity and heroism are noble sentiments that should be praised and encouraged and remembered among communities and individuals. Yet they are rare. They should not be imposed from a faction on a nation?s soldiers and small towns without some proportionate benefit to the nation. And the more common absence of these qualities in nations and individuals should not be an occasion for condemnation by ?armchair Oscar Schindlers.?

I also question the ultimate moral calculus of these moralizers.  The idea that America or other large nations should ?do something? when evil is afoot is the chief reason petty border squabbles in the Balkans can metastasize into something like World War I. In the name of creating world unity against aggression, the interventionists instead create a formula for perpetual and ever larger wars fought by enormous coalitions of people with no direct stake in the conflict. This is madness. Yet this is the fundamental premise of the United Nations, the ?New World Order,? and the neoconservatives? ?idealist? foreign policy.

Rejecting this reasoning is only possible when one is a nationalist with a sense of greater responsibility, loyalty, and love to one?s own than to foreigners. This is a perfectly natural love and is immediately tangible when one travels overseas. It?s more than mere patriotism.  It requires not just love of one?s own, but rejection of an alluring suitor: the siren song of ?universal human brotherhood.? Today, the alternative to nationalism is not localism so much as it two bad alternatives: a descent into primitive tribalism at home with no sense of common interest between different ethnic groups and social classes, or a sentimental globalism that devalues national pride and glorifies run-away materialism. It?s a pincer movement with Spike Lee on one side and Benetton on the other. Healthy nationalism is an antidote to both of these unsustainable extremes.

If we accept this view, we must revisit the solemn invocation: ?never again.? Because if ?never again? means we must always go to war to protect the weak from the strong--because Americans, Britons, Eastern European Jews, or Bosniaks must never be valued differently by Americans in this moral calculus--then we?ll always be at war everywhere. Our people will suffer. And we may find ourselves victimized in turn for having created new enemies. Worse, we may be unwittingly strengthening future victimizers posing as victims in far flung locales involving people we know almost nothing about. Consider Iraq as an example of a ?humanitarian war? gone awry: who are the good guys again? Is it the Shiites? The Sunnis? Or was that last week?

Most saliently, we should look to how a real ethnostate behaves. Israel, the chief cheerleader for ?never again? politics, turned away Sudanese refugees in spite of the atrocities they are fleeing in 2007. If Israel expends its resources so parsimoniously on behalf of strangers in need, how persuasive is the claim from its supporters that we must do the same for strangers the globe over? In light of this shabby treatment of the Sudanese, how persuasive is the associated claim that America owes Israel substantial military and financial support to atone for our ?earlier failing? to intervene more quickly during the Holocaust?

It?s all a bunch of double standards. No one can follow them. So the principles should be revisited. And we should wisen up so that Americans and the West do not get brow-beaten into doing things that no sane nation, not least the Israelis, would ever do with its immigration and foreign policies. The start of this critique must be some sense of nationhood, which is to say, some distinct sense of self that prioritizes ourselves, our loyalties, and our proper group concerns above those of every other nation and above those of every imploring claimant.

When we look at wars like Iraq and Kosovo, we should indeed say ?never again?: Never again will America be guilt-tripped into doing something so stupid with with the flawed ?blank check? slogan:  ?Never Again.?

Article URL: http://www.takimag.com/blogs/article/never_again_nation/
I speak of civil, social man under law, and no other.
-Sir Edmund Burke

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: ?Never Again? Nation
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2008, 08:00:33 AM »
Why else do we help Muslims in Kosovo and Iraq, when it?s so obvious these people are hostile to us, our religion (or what?s left of it), and our way of life?

====================================
I don;t think that it is obvious that Kosovars are hostile to Americans, and neither are most Iraqis. The reason to help the former and not the latter is one of ability. We had the ability to prevent the destruction of the Kosovars (who aree hardly any sort of devout or fundamentalist Muslims) but not the ability to make a much larger country surrounded by countries potentially hostile to us (Syria and Iran, notably, though we have also pissed off the Turks as well).

It appears that the former Yugoslavia is in a process of cooling down and becoming integrated into a democratic Europe. It is not at all clear that Iraq will ever become democratic or even an ally of the US (and these are not the same thing, by the way).

I do agree that "Never again!" is a poor idea to use as some sort of universal motivation for everything. Clearly, the US cannot and even the UN cannot resolve some conflicts: Kashmir and Chechnya, South Ossetia and other would-be breakaway Russian Federation states, for example.

I do not think that Liberal ideas favor the destruction of Western civilization. They do favor understanding better the root cause of conflicts and potential conflicts and using diplomacy and other non-violent methods to eliminate or at least limit them.

There is little that the US can do to prevent an increase of Muslims in Europe, either.

There are problems that neither the Neocons, the Conservatives or the Liberals can resolve. New strategies must be developed in some cases.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

The_Professor

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Re: ?Never Again? Nation
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2008, 11:54:14 AM »
"New strategies must be developed in some cases."

such as?
***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: ?Never Again? Nation
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2008, 03:16:33 PM »
"New strategies must be developed in some cases."

such as?

================================
The Europeans must address whatever problems Muslims cause in their countries.

The US must dialog honestly with whomever is in charge of Muslim nations. Up to now, the policies have been based on two concerns: (1) Israel is sacred and must be allowed to do whatever it wants, and (2) God has placed our companies' oil under your sand, and so long as it can be sold at a good profit, your leaders will be compensated royally. (Appropriate, since so many of them are in fact, royalty, and whom better to pay royalties than royalty?)

The interests of the American people (most of who are not Jewish and would not favor the special status with which their government treats Jews and their "spare country" if they actually knew how bloody much it cost them in money and lives), and inexpensive motor fuel for the American people are ignored, as is the welfare of nearly everyone in the Middle East to whom oil royalties are NOT paid.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: ?Never Again? Nation
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2008, 05:59:29 PM »
I would prefer democracy in any circumstance , but the nature of Mecca makes the idea problematic .

Given that Kingship is not preferred to republic , this royal family seems to be trying to act responsibly with the cash.


Quote

Through 5-year development plans, the government has sought to allocate its petroleum income to transform its relatively undeveloped, oil-based economy into that of a modern industrial state while maintaining the kingdom's traditional Islamic values and customs. Although economic planners have not achieved all their goals, the economy has progressed rapidly. Oil wealth has increased the standard of living of most Saudis. However, significant population growth has strained the government's ability to finance further improvements in the country's standard of living. Heavy dependence on petroleum revenue continues, but industry and agriculture now account for a larger share of economic activity. The mismatch between the job skills of Saudi graduates and the needs of the private job market at all levels remains the principal obstacle to economic diversification and development; about 4.6 million non-Saudis are employed in the economy.

Saudi Arabia's first two development plans, covering the 1970s, emphasized infrastructure. The results were impressive--the total length of paved highways tripled, power generation increased by a multiple of 28, and the capacity of the seaports grew tenfold. For the third plan (1980-85), the emphasis changed. Spending on infrastructure declined, but it rose markedly on education, health, and social services. The share for diversifying and expanding productive sectors of the economy (primarily industry) did not rise as planned, but the two industrial cities of Jubail and Yanbu--built around the use of the country's oil and gas to produce steel, petrochemicals, fertilizer, and refined oil products--were largely completed.

In the fourth plan (1985-90), the country's basic infrastructure was viewed as largely complete, but education and training remained areas of concern. Private enterprise was encouraged, and foreign investment in the form of joint ventures with Saudi public and private companies was welcomed. The private sector became more important, rising to 70% of non-oil GDP by 1987. While still concentrated in trade and commerce, private investment increased in industry, agriculture, banking, and construction companies. These private investments were supported by generous government financing and incentive programs. The objective was for the private sector to have 70% to 80% ownership in most joint venture enterprises.
The fifth plan (1990-95) emphasized consolidation of the country's defenses; improved and more efficient government social services; regional development; and, most importantly, creating greater private-sector employment opportunities for Saudis by reducing the number of foreign workers.

The sixth plan (1996-2000) focused on lowering the cost of government services without cutting them and sought to expand educational training programs. The plan called for reducing the kingdom's dependence on the petroleum sector by diversifying economic activity, particularly in the private sector, with special emphasis on industry and agriculture. It also continued the effort to "Saudiize" the labor force.

The seventh plan (2000-2004) focused more on economic diversification and a greater role of the private sector in the Saudi economy. For the period 2000-04, the Saudi Government has aimed at an average GDP growth rate of 3.16% each year, with projected growths of 5.04% for the private sector and 4.01% for the non-oil sector. The government also has set a target of creating 817,300 new jobs for Saudi nationals.

The eighth plan (2005-2010) again focuses on economic diversification in addition to education and inclusion of women in society. The plan calls for establishing new universities and new colleges with technical specializations. Privatization as well as emphases on a knowledge-based economy and tourism will help in the goal economic diversification.


http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3584.htm

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: ?Never Again? Nation
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2008, 06:16:30 PM »
The purpose of these writings was and is to make the Saudi royals look good. Keep in mind that there is no supervisory authority to insure that they are actually doing what they say they are, nor would any newspaper report that reality differs with any of these policies.

The King and his family are legally or practically the owners of all the oil wealth, and they distribute it however they see fit.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: ?Never Again? Nation
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2008, 06:21:59 PM »
The purpose of these writings was and is to make the Saudi royals look good. Keep in mind that there is no supervisory authority to insure.....




That is one of the reasons I am glad that I am not an Arabian , these are the drawbacks of a Monarchy.

But the Royal Family has raised the standard of health care and nutrition of the common man in Saudi Arabia enough to cause a population boom.

I guess this is the way it happens when the food comes first and the education comes second, in nations that have become both well fed and well educated the population growth seems to be slowing.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: ?Never Again? Nation
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2008, 10:34:20 PM »
I guess this is the way it happens when the food comes first and the education comes second, in nations that have become both well fed and well educated the population growth seems to be slowing.

==============================================
The way this tends to happen is that first, people have huge families so that enough children will survive to look after the parents. A large family, especially one with many sons, is akn to a retirement fund.

When improved health care arrives, it also tends to be accompanied by a growing middle class and the availability of modern conveniences: electricity and appliances, running water and factory-made clothing, furniture, better houses and such. To earn these things, the family ceases to spend all that effort raising children to work as peasants, moves to the towns and cities to live a better life, but then the younger generation needs an education. In Saudi Arabia, the crappy jobs are done mostly by Pakistanis, Filipinos, Bengals, Yemenis and other people from impoverished places. The Saudi family does not have to struggle so much to pay for education, because that is free to every Saudi. So is housing and a lot of other conveniences. This is a society where huge families are not just old age insurance, but also  status symbols.Old Ibn Saud had officially 72 children with a large number of wives, and no doubt a number more of unofficial children with unrecognized wives.

So Saudi Arabia has an overabundance of unoccupied young men who can't find a decent job (no way most of them would take the sort of grunt work done by the Pakis, Bengals, Yemanis, etc.) There are always openings in a nice government job with Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice, ie, the religious cops.

thehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_for_the_Propagation_of_Virtue_and_the_Prevention_of_Vice

Some of these young men take their job very seriously and feel that virtue needs propagating and vice needs preventing outside the Kingdom. When oil prices fell by half in the 1980's, there were way too many of these guys, and some ended up in Afghanistan fighting first the Soviets and then allied with the Taliban.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: ?Never Again? Nation
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2008, 12:38:59 AM »
I guess this is the way it happens when the food comes first and the education comes second, in nations that have become both well fed and well educated the population growth seems to be slowing.

==============================================
The way this tends to happen is that first, people have huge families so that enough children will survive to look after the parents. A large family, especially one with many sons, is akn to a retirement fund.

..................

Some of these young men take their job very seriously and feel that virtue needs propagating and vice needs preventing outside the Kingdom. When oil prices fell by half in the 1980's, there were way too many of these guys, and some ended up in Afghanistan fighting first the Soviets and then allied with the Taliban.



I can't argue with this assessment , it looks pretty close to what I am thinking myself.

Is the lesson from this that the well cared for dissatisfied remain dissatisfied?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: ?Never Again? Nation
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2008, 09:25:38 AM »
I can't argue with this assessment , it looks pretty close to what I am thinking myself.

Is the lesson from this that the well cared for dissatisfied remain dissatisfied?

============================================================
No, I imagine that a Saudi family with two wives and 18 kids feels quite satisfied.

Besides, all fortune, good and bad alike, is regarded as the inscrutable will of Allah. Fate (kismet) is the reason for everything to many Saudis. There is nothing much like the Protestant ethic there. So "satisfaction" is probably not a meaningful word.

Just like the American family that has a new Mercury, when grandpa could only manage a used Ford.

Slaves and retainers and the accompanying patron system are typical of Saudi society.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

_JS

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Re: ?Never Again? Nation
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2008, 02:26:54 PM »
Quote
I would prefer democracy in any circumstance

Why?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
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sirs

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Re: ?Never Again? Nation
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2008, 02:42:20 PM »
The concept and practice of Freedom comes to mind as to why, for me
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

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Re: ?Never Again? Nation
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2008, 02:50:35 PM »
The concept and practice of Freedom comes to mind as to why, for me

How does democracy, as it is practiced in the west promote "freedom"?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: ?Never Again? Nation
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2008, 02:56:48 PM »
The concept and practice of Freedom comes to mind as to why, for me

How does democracy, as it is practiced in the west promote "freedom"?

Since it provides anyone the opportunity to be whatever it is they want to be.  Do some have it more difficult?, of course.  But no one is prevented, and our constitution provides the framework of God given freedoms to progress as far as one wants.  Too bad so many politicians mutate the message of the constitution, to throw up more and more roadblocks at the common man vs the other way around where the constitution is supposed to LIMIT what government is allowed to do.

It's actually a dirty little practice, as I see it
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

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Re: ?Never Again? Nation
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2008, 03:05:53 PM »
Since it provides anyone the opportunity to be whatever it is they want to be.  Do some have it more difficult?, of course.  But no one is prevented, and our constitution provides the framework of God given freedoms to progress as far as one wants.  Too bad so many politicians mutate the message of the constitution, to throw up more and more roadblocks at the common man vs the other way around where the constitution is supposed to LIMIT what government is allowed to do.

It's actually a dirty little practice, as I see it

But how does democracy allow "anyone to be what they want to be?" How do you get from the voting booth to essentially doing whatever you like?

I don't see the transition.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.