Spain Gets Smacked by Economic Reality

[Xavier_Onassis]

What percentage of Americans actually own powerboats that are not in drydock? I would guess under 2%, maybe under 1%.

The stats Plane posted show about 6% of Americans - including children - own boats.

I did not say boats.
I said "powerboats not in drydock", since those were the only ones mentioned i the highly hypothetical speculation about what the Spanish government might do.


So the actual figure would be Spaniards with boats that were both powered and in the water.

Plane claims that if the Spanish government were to seize every powerboat in the water if it were not removed from the water, then that would be the "most succinct reason for Americans to hate socialism" that he had ever heard of.

I think that perhaps there are much more succinct imaginary actions that the American government might take, if we had a Socialist government than asking people to move a damned powerboat. I hardly think that the Spanish government is likely to cause Americans to hate Socialism at all. Most Americans, if they are like my students (I am guessing that they are if possible less knowledgeable), could not find Spain on a frigging map, have no clue about who constitutes the Spanish government, and are barely aware of anything that the Spanish government has done since it subsidized Columbus.

 
Please note that the suggestion about telling Spaniards to move or lose their power bats came from Michael Tee and not from Sr. Zapatero, who has not taken a position on powered watercraft ownership, and I am guessing never will.

This has been one of the silliest discussions I have ever been a party to.

[Amianthus]

I said "powerboats not in drydock", since those were the only ones mentioned i the highly hypothetica;l speculation about what the Spanish government might do.

The stats were for use of powerboats.

Did you even look at them?

[Xavier_Onassis]

The stats were for use of powerboats.

Did you even look at them?

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The discussion was about how the Spanish government MIGHT tell SPANISH powerboat owners that did not have their boats in drydock to get them out of the water or lose them.

If the Spanish government were to do this, it suposedly would, in Plane's mind, cause everyone (I suppose in Spain) ro renounce "Socialism" forever.

It did not have anything to do with the percentage of Americans who own powerboats, both in and out of the water.

I question that one of every sixteen Americans has a powerboat floating out there on a lake, river, or marina.

Every once in a while, my neighbor tows some sort of small fiberglass boat home and parks it in the yard to breed mosquitos in. It sits there for a spell, usually between two and six years, and never leaves the yard, then he sells it or gives it away and he remains boatless for a year or so. Never have any of these boats every taken a weekend vacation to the ocean or anywhere else. Sometimes these boats have a motor attached, most often they don't.My neighbor has six children, and they have about ten children of their own among them: that's one inert boat among 17 people. But my neighbor's boat is never in the water and never uses fuel of any kind as a result, so that would be zero boats in the water for all those 17 people.



This seems to be a pattern here in Miami-Dade County

[Amianthus]

The discussion was about how the Spanish government MIGHT tell SPANISH powerboat owners that did not have their boats in drydock to get them out of the water or lose them.

The what was the point of your claim "What percentage of Americans actually own powerboats that are not in drydock? I would guess under 2%, maybe under 1%"?

Seems like it would be a pointless claim. Plane's stats refute your guess.

And in Minnesota, there is a boat in damn near every yard during the week. They're gone on the water during the weekends. In the Charlotte area, probably about 1/3 of the houses have a boat. And Lake Norman, Mountain Home Lake, Lake Wylie, and the Catawba River are filled with boats on the weekend.

[Xavier_Onassis]

And in Minnesota, there is a boat in damn near every yard during the week. They're gone on the water during the weekends. In the Charlotte area, probably about 1/3 of the houses have a boat. And Lake Norman, Mountain Home Lake, Lake Wylie, and the Catawba River are filled with boats on the weekend.

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But see, we were not discussing those watercraft. We were discussing boats that are in the water and therefore likely to be hypothetically seized by the Spanish government, thereby causing Plane to hate socialism succinctly.


I suppose we could assume from these facts from "The Land of 10,000 Lakes" that the capitalistic Law of Supply and Demand that has raised the price of gasoline to over $4.00 has still been unable to prevent fun-loving Minnesotans to use said gasoline for recreational purposes.

I speculate that Mother Nature, who has been known to impair recreational navigation by freezing all 10,000 lakes and many rivers every winter, has proven more effective at conserving gasoline for several months of the year, and of course, by causing it to rain, which also impairs the degree of joyfulness one might derive from recreational boating.

The Spanish government is well down the list of hazards to recreational motorboating, it would appear.

Seldom, if ever, does a happily recreating  Minnesotan have to contend with a couple of determined and Socialist tricorn hat-wearing Guardia Civil confiscating his prized watercraft.

[Amianthus]

But see, we were not discussing those watercraft. We were discussing boats that are in the water and therefore likely to be hypothetically seized by the Spanish government, thereby causing Plane to hate socialism succinctly.

Then one would have to wonder why you brought up American boat ownership.

Is it because you are incapable of staying on the topic?

[Amianthus]

And BTW, winter does not preclude Minnesotans from enjoying their lakes. It's just that they only use flat bottom boats pulled by ATVs then. Also, pickup trucks, cars, and snowmobiles are used extensively on the lakes during this time. There is also a second Fishing Opener during the winter time.

And in the spring, when the lakes are just starting to thaw and there is a layer of water on top of the ice, the Minnesotans really enjoy it. You can combine ice and hydroplaning - what fun!

[Plane]

And in Minnesota, there is a boat in damn near every yard during the week. They're gone on the water during the weekends. In the Charlotte area, probably about 1/3 of the houses have a boat. And Lake Norman, Mountain Home Lake, Lake Wylie, and the Catawba River are filled with boats on the weekend.

=======================================
But see, we were not discussing those watercraft. We were discussing boats that are in the water and therefore likely to be hypothetically seized by the Spanish government, thereby causing Plane to hate socialism succinctly.


I suppose we could assume from these facts from "The Land of 10,000 Lakes" that the capitalistic Law of Supply and Demand that has raised the price of gasoline to over $4.00 has still been unable to prevent fun-loving Minnesotans to use said gasoline for recreational purposes.

I speculate that Mother Nature, who has been known to impair recreational navigation by freezing all 10,000 lakes and many rivers every winter, has proven more effective at conserving gasoline for several months of the year, and of course, by causing it to rain, which also impairs the degree of joyfulness one might derive from recreational boating.

The Spanish government is well down the list of hazards to recreational motorboating, it would appear.

Seldom, if ever, does a happily recreating  Minnesotan have to contend with a couple of determined and Socialist tricorn hat-wearing Guardia Civil confiscating his prized watercraft.

Well to recap ...

Plane
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     Re: Spain Gets Smacked by Economic Reality
? Reply #7 on: June 21, 2008, 08:34:16 PM ? Quote Modify Remove Split Topic 

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Quote from: Michael Tee on June 21, 2008, 08:27:30 PM
For example, it decides how much gasoline the nation can afford to import for its essential uses, and it defines "essential uses."  This probably means that all the non-commercial powerboat owners are told to put their boats into drydock or lose them. 


That is the most succinct statement of why Americans should hate socialism I have ever seen.

Boats are just a vehickle for the point.
The more Socialist the government , the more the government decides for you what you will do with your resorces.

For some people a boat is part of the job and for some it is part of the pursuit of happyness , neither should be easy for the government to suppress.

[Xavier_Onassis]

The more Socialist the government , the more the government decides for you what you will do with your resorces.


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So if the government refuses to let a guy buy a Sherman tank and drive it to work, or prohibits rabbit hunting with Gatling guns, they are Socialist? 

Some of the most Republican precincts in South Florida are gated communities than ban people from living the compound if one drives a pickup truck. They also tell you what color you must paint your home. Beige seems to be a favorite.

Coral Gables just spent a lot of money battling a Santero priest who sacrificed live poultry and goats on a backyard altar.

[_JS]

The more Socialist the government, the more the government decides for you what you will do with your resources.

None of this is Socialism. Just having larger scope of government doesn't make it socialism. Many western democracies have governments that expand and contract their size and scope. That absolutely does not make them socialists. The right wing military juntas we installed all over Latin America made some very controlling laws that stripped people of all kinds of liberties, but they were by no means socialists. Even RD's favorite leader, who he's defended on more than one occasion, Fascist Augusto Pinochet, had some horribly constricting laws over personal freedom and you'd likely have met your demise with a gunshot to the back of your head in a football stadium (after a few months of torture) if you told him that he was a socialist.


Socialism is the turning over of the means of production to the proletariat. It is the historical political and economic rule between capitalism and communism. It has nothing to do with this minutiae.

[Plane]

Socialism is the turning over of the means of production to the proletariat. It is the historical political and economic rule between capitalism and communism. It has nothing to do with this minutiae.

No really , you mean that there has never been a socialist government?

The right to use your own resorces as you see fit is not absolute anywhere ,but socialism injures this right the worst.
Other rights have other enemys .

[Xavier_Onassis]

Socialism is based on mutual cooperation by members of a society.

It has taken a variety of forms, and has described itself in many ways. None of those ways has ever involved the confiscation of powered privately-owned watercraft.

Many, perhaps most, Americans routinely spend well over half their incomes on housing, transportation (cars, fuel, maintenance and insurance), medical care and educating themselves and their children.And yet they gasp in horror at the thought that Danes and Swedes have managed to accomplish all these goals for nearly every member of their societies by simply paying a maximum of 50% in taxes, and receive superior education, housing, medical care, transportation from their governments, in countries with a very small proportion of the resources of the US in a much harsher climate.

The crime rate and the proportion of people in prison is a tiny fraction of what it is in the US.

Neither Sweden nor Denmark have nationalized corporations to do any of this.
Personal watercraft and hunting are popular sports in both countries.

[_JS]

Socialism is the turning over of the means of production to the proletariat. It is the historical political and economic rule between capitalism and communism. It has nothing to do with this minutiae.

No really , you mean that there has never been a socialist government?

The right to use your own resorces as you see fit is not absolute anywhere ,but socialism injures this right the worst.
Other rights have other enemys .

Yes, really.

Marx did not write "workers of Spain unite" or "workers of East Manitoba unite." He wrote, "workers of the world unite." There is no such thing as "a socialist government" or a "socialist nation." Socialism is international and will be completely dominant as capitalism is today.

While welfare states and universal healthcare may be laudable goals, it does not make a country socialist. That is part of a perception that many people, especially Americans have never been able (or more likely - willing) to comprehend. Nationalisation, while it can be a step towards class consciousness, could also be used by a government for ill purposes just as easily. Trade unions are perhaps the best tool to aid workers in class consciousness, but even those can be self-defeating if operated maliciously as with the AFL in the United States.

Socialism will dominate once class consciousness is achieved, which will happen. Then socialism is inevitable. It has to be. The elite and bourgeoisie will have no cards left to play. Where will they receive power when no one is their to run their factories? To do their construction? To sell their items? To staff the hospitals? The means of production will mean little without the proletariat to run it for them.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Socialism will dominate once class consciousness is achieved, which will happen. Then socialism is inevitable. It has to be. The elite and bourgeoisie will have no cards left to play. Where will they receive power when no one is their to run their factories? To do their construction? To sell their items? To staff the hospitals? The means of production will mean little without the proletariat to run it for them.


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This is like saying, "If we had some ham, we could have ham and eggs, if we had some eggs."

Perhaps class consciousness will happen, but there are many people who are more interested in their own personal materialistic expression, like wearing designer clothing or owning a 42" teevee, which will allow them to feel superior to his fellow man. Many people are uninterested in mere equality. They want more, and even the perception of more will do just fine.


How will class consciousness be achieved? Isn't expecting the entire human race to join in a single belief a bit of an impossibility?

Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad have all tried to do this, and all have failed. I don't think we have even arrived at the point where every adult has drunk a minimum one Coca-Cola, despite a global organization and massive advertising budgets.

Everyone is not a Mormon yet, either, and they can enlist you even after you are dead and can't put up a fight.

The closest we seem to have come as a global effort is to eliminate smallpox.

Class consciousness is a system of beliefs, like a religion. It is a lot more complicated than a desire not to die a ghastly death by the pox.

Take a guy like Plane, who considers the threat to power boat ownership to be a major loss of freedom. How will anyone ever cause him to have any degree of class consciousness?

[_JS]

You are right to be skeptical XO, especially in a country so far removed from any semblance of holding value for workers and labor. This is a place where neoliberalism and conservatism have convinced some of the poorest that more money for the wealthiest 0.5% will eventually tinkle down onto them and make everything better. It is natural to be skeptical that workers would ever stand up for themselves when so many bourgeoisie and elitist traps lay in their path to class consciousness:

Racism
Crass consumerism
False crises
"Safety & security"
False ideals

But class consciousness is not a religious notion or a set of beliefs that all of the people must accept. Think of it like this: it is the point where the school kids realize that the two or three bullies don't really have any power over them. That point is the moment when class consciousness is achieved. When the proletariat realizes that it is they who hold all the cards and that the elite, the bourgeoisie, and protecting groups like the police, are not the ones who have the power.

It isn't a difficult realization if you think about it. The cars we drive, the nurses we rely upon, the docks where all of our global commerce takes place rely upon the proletariat to function. What stands in the way are the obstacles I listed above and many more such as nationalism. But the most remarkable weapon against these is capitalism itself. It is creating lifestyles that will not be sustainable. At the same time capitalism has good aspects that promote worker education and solidarity without even knowing it.

That is why, in the long-term capitalism is doomed to be a thesis and meet its antithesis to form a synthesis.