Author Topic: No War, No Holocaust?  (Read 17520 times)

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Michael Tee

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Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2008, 01:35:12 AM »
<<Nothing really justifies atrocities.>>

Killing Nazis is hardly an atrocity.

Amianthus

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Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2008, 08:57:26 AM »
They acted badly on very rare occasions.  They never intended to exterminate an entire race of people. 

I think the aboriginal Americans and aboriginal Australians would disagree. As would a number of other peoples.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2008, 09:07:24 AM »
<Nothing really justifies atrocities.>>

Killing Nazis is hardly an atrocity.

==========================
Killing someone who has a weapon pointed at you is self-defense. Bombing cities is not.

Carpetbombing entire cities is always an atrocity. There were all manner of atrocities in WWII. The greatest seem to have occurred in Nanking, Leipzig, and Hiroshima. It is possible that there would have been many more, had the weapons been available.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2008, 05:09:10 PM »
<<I think the aboriginal Americans and aboriginal Australians would disagree [that the English never intended to exterminate an entire race of people.]>>

Sure as hell didn't get very far with their plans, then.  Where'd they put those gas chambers, again?  Or did they favour shooting them in pits?  Or medical experiments?


<<As would a number of other people>>

Yeah those big bad English.  Who else they try to exterminate?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2008, 05:13:18 PM »
The English were certainly a tad harsh on the Irish. If they didn't gas them, it was likely because they lacked the technology.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Amianthus

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Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2008, 05:18:43 PM »
Sure as hell didn't get very far with their plans, then.  Where'd they put those gas chambers, again?  Or did they favour shooting them in pits?  Or medical experiments?

There is evidence that nearly 90% of the aboriginal Americans were killed off. What was the % of Jews killed?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2008, 05:24:33 PM »
<<There is evidence that nearly 90% of the aboriginal Americans were killed off. >>

Nice try.  The evidence is that nearly 90% died off, mostly due to European diseases to which they had no resistance.

<< What was the % of Jews killed?>>

What's the difference?  You're comparing apples and oranges, Jews deliberately killed by shooting, gassing, forced labour and medical experimentation versus Indians dying from exposure to germs to which they had no resistance.

hnumpah

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Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2008, 05:35:28 PM »
Quote
Sure as hell didn't get very far with their plans, then.  Where'd they put those gas chambers, again?  Or did they favour shooting them in pits?  Or medical experiments?

I understand they tried to kill off one tribe in New England by giving them smallpox-infected blankets.

Wasn't shooting them in pits done in India under British rule?

They were your typical empire-building thugs who wanted to take what they could get and keep it as long as possible. That they are now kinder and gentler (and that you are one of them) does not change history.
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Amianthus

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Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2008, 05:36:06 PM »
Nice try.  The evidence is that nearly 90% died off, mostly due to European diseases to which they had no resistance.

Never heard of the disease laden blankets that were given to 'em?
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2008, 07:48:22 PM »
I would say that the Nazis were more technically advanced than the guys who passed out the smallpox-infested blankets.

There was a small degree bravery involved for some of the soldiers who passed out the blankets. I am sure that there were few if any German soldiers who died accidentally from Vikon-D.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2008, 07:58:14 PM »
<<Never heard of the disease laden blankets that were given to 'em?>>

Yes I did.  That happened in one area of New England and was the work of the colonists, not the English governors.  I also heard of one tribe in California that was hunted for sport, hunted to extinction over decades.  The last guy died in the 1920s.  Again, I blame the colonists, not the English.  And both were fairly isolated episodes.  Mass murder was not the policy of the colonial government the way that mass murder was the policy of the German government.

It wouldn't surprise me if that [shooting in pits] was the punishment applied to mutineers in the Sepoy Rebellion.  Some of them were fired from the mouths of cannon.  I would draw a line between harsh or even savage punishment of mutineers in the middle of the 19th Century and the deliberate genocide aimed at an entire race of people and sparing none, which was the distinguishing feature of the Nazi German regime.

<<They were your typical empire-building thugs who wanted to take what they could get and keep it as long as possible. >>

They left a better world in their wake wherever they built their empire.  Railroads, courts, laws, police stations, postal services, mining commissions, resource management commissions, schools and universities, administration and government.  Wherever they went, they left their mark and almost always it was for the better.  "Empire-building," sure, thugs my ass.  They were the greatest civilizing influence the world has ever seen.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2008, 11:53:46 PM »
They were your typical empire-building thugs who wanted to take what they could get and keep it as long as possible. >>

They left a better world in their wake wherever they built their empire.  Railroads, courts, laws, police stations, postal services, mining commissions, resource management commissions, schools and universities, administration and government.  Wherever they went, they left their mark and almost always it was for the better.  "Empire-building," sure, thugs my ass.  They were the greatest civilizing influence the world has ever seen.

=====================================================
I think both views are correct. The British started out being thugs, but the religious element among them really did believe in the "White Man's Burden", and they did generally leave things better off after they left.  But the best colonizers seem to be the Danes. Greenland costs them a ton of money, and they won't allow self-government (not that the locals want it much) until the Inuits are ready for it.

They seem to have left a good impression in the Virgin Islanders, too.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

hnumpah

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Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2008, 12:23:20 AM »
Scholars make finds in Nazi archive
By ARTHUR MAX, Associated Press Writer

BAD AROLSEN, Germany - From prison brothels to slave labor camps, 15 scholars concluded a two-week probe Thursday of an untapped repository of millions of Nazi records, and hailed it as a rich vein of raw material that will deepen the study of the Holocaust.
 
It was the first concentrated academic sweep of the long-private archive administered by the International Tracing Service since it opened its doors last November to Holocaust survivors, victims relatives and historical researchers.

German historian Christel Trouve said the nameless millions of forced laborers began to take shape as individual people as she studied small labor camps ? which existed in astonishing numbers.

Among the striking revelations was the identification of the man who rescued an 8-year-old boy in Buchenwald, Israel Meir Lau, who later became Israel's chief rabbi.

Lau had said his rescuer was a person called Fyodor from Rostow. Kenneth Waltzer of Michigan State University found it was Fyodor Michajlitschenko, 18, arrested by the Gestapo in 1943, who gave the small boy ear warmers and treated him like a father in Block 8 until the camp's liberation.

"A lot of us found the collections here, approached in the appropriate way, really opened up new significant scholarly lines of inquiry," said Waltzer, who is director of his university's Jewish Studies department.

Jessica Anderson Hughes of Rutgers University discovered that prostitutes servicing other prisoners in concentration camp brothels often came from ordinary backgrounds ? exploding the myth that most had been prostitutes before their arrest.

Hughes said the lists in Bad Arolsen allowed her to attach names to the prisoner-prostitutes at Buchenwald, one of the largest concentration camps which had one of eight known brothels for prisoners.

With the names she could look up incarceration records ? and she found some women were married, some single, some were mothers. The records said many were arrested for petty theft or other minor crime.

"We always portrayed them as volunteers, but I wanted to know why they volunteered," she said. She believed the prostitutes faced "a choiceless choice."

The opening of the files to scholars followed pressure from survivors and from the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum. The importance of the archive was highlighted in a series of stories by The Associated Press, which was the first news organization to be granted extensive access to the long-restricted papers.

The research project was organized jointly by the tracing service and the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, which brought scholars from six countries to begin assessing the significance of the archive, the largest collection of Nazi documents.

The 50 million pages stored in this central German spa town since the mid-1950s previously had been used by Red Cross staff to respond to inquiries about missing persons or the fate of family members, and later to document compensation claims.

With the population of survivors quickly shrinking, the 11 countries that govern the archive agreed in 2006 to widen access to the files. It took another 18 months for all 11 to ratify the required treaty amendments before the archive could open.

Reto Meister, the archive's director, said he still gets 1,000 inquires a month asking for personal information. Now, the archive is also getting dozens of academic inquiries or visitors every month, he said.

The gray metal shelves and cabinets contain 16 miles (25 kilometers) of transport lists, camp registries, medical records, forced labor files and death certificates of some 17.5 million people subjected to Nazi persecutions.

Taken together with written and oral testimonies and the transcripts of war crimes trials, the dry data at Bad Arolsen add texture to the known picture of the Holocaust, from the first concentration camps created within weeks of Hitler's rise to power in January 1933 to the defeat of Nazism in May 1945.

"It was much more than I expected," said Trouve.

"I've been working on concentration camps for 15 years. We know there was forced laborers in Germany ? millions of them," she said. "But then you go through these lists. You see the farmer employing so many people. You see the factory employing hundreds of people. Everything was blurred, but suddenly you have a clear image."

Jean-Marc Dreyfus, of Manchester University in Britain, said the archive "won't utterly change our view of the Holocaust, but it will be very precious for researchers to complement and pursue new research."

___

Associated Press investigative researcher Randy Herschaft contributed to this article from Bad Arolsen
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

hnumpah

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Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2008, 12:30:25 AM »
The colonists were English at that time.

Better world? Depends on your point of view.
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

Michael Tee

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Re: No War, No Holocaust?
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2008, 12:42:40 AM »
<<The colonists were English at that time.>>

They were and they weren't.  Much of the first generation was English-born or born to planters in the BWI, but many, even of the English-born, weren't raised in England.  They were raised in a frontier culture which wouldn't have been familiar to any Englishman of the time.  With each generation that passed, the colonists were less and less English and more and more American.

<<Better world? Depends on your point of view.>>

Long after the former British colonies gained their independence, they voluntarily retained many of the colonial forms and structures left to them by the British, such as the judicial system, the laws, the postal service, the railroads, the Port Authorities, the various Registries, etc.  If the British didn't leave them a better world, why did they cling to these British forms when they didn't have to??