We are less respected by the world?

[Xavier_Onassis]

I know rather a lot about Iran. A colleague of mine is Iranian, and says the same dumb crap as Amedinejahd, more or less. He is a prick, but a wimpy prick. Utterly obsessed about how modern and advanced and cool and neat Iran is and how Persians invented everything and used to rule the world. All is quite obviously a cover for an inferiority complex of amazing proportions.

Maybe they beat up on women, but I have long ago ceased to take them seriously. Iranians bore me, but they do not frighten me, even in the least.


I am also willing to allow the South Ossetians and Abkhazians to solve all their own political problems, and the Georgians as well.

[Brassmask]

I can't think of one person I've ever met in my whole life who was from another country and came here who has told me that people in other countries just love the hell out of America and think we are the bee's knees.  Not one.

In fact, I've to several in my lifetime who have been from all over the globe from the '80's til now who have told me if I ever go overseas, tell everyone who asks that you are Canadian.

I know several people who go overseas a couple of times a year on business and on vacations and they say they are met with, at the very least, antipathy and in one case, one person I know of was beaten by a cab driver in one of those Scandinavian countries when the cabbie realized they were Americans.  This was just before the 2004 election or just after.

I think that we are seen in some ways as a rogue nation who has too much power and everyone is more than willing to let us sink like a stone just to teach us some manners.  Or at the very least, it will give us less resources to conduct unprovoked invasions like Russia and Iraq have done in the past.

Well, less resources after China decides to cut us off.

[BT]

My guess is other countries view americans about as favorably as we view them.

This isn't a class president election, so who cares.

[crocat]

Jealousy breeds contempt.  It is really just another predictable life lesson.   America is a huge country with better conditions than any other country in the world.  As the world got smaller and more people got the opportunity to come visit the US on vaca or immigrate other countries got jealous.   Drop a camera anywhere even in the most remote jungles and you will find western clothing or some American relics... buy a coke anywhere.   Countries that do not accept our ideologies are threatened and thus the propaganda begins.

I wonder how much our applications for permanent residency have fallen with all this "hate America" crap?

[Michael Tee]

I read the link that Cindy posted and generally found it factual and informative.  It's also a good summary of 20th Century Iranian history.  I have a number of Iranian associates and I'm interested in their culture and history.  The Iranians I know, however, are all refugees from the Islamic Revolution and therefore have a very strong pro-Shah, anti-Islamic-Revolution bias.  I would say in general that if you meet any Iranian living in the West, that is generally going to be his or her position, almost as a matter of definition.

Two specific comments about points raised in the book:
1.  The comment that the Mossadegh government was overthrown by a combination of internal and external forces is very misleading.  The impetus for the overthrow was directly related to Mossadegh's nationalization of the Anglo-Persian Oil Co.  That internal Iranian groups were utilized is standard operating procedure in any foreign-led coup - - as for example, in the CIA's overthrow of Chile's democratically elected Allende government or Guatemala's democratically elected Arbenz government, or in the CIA's failed efforts to overthrow the revolutionary Cuban and democratically elected Venezuelan governments.  It is almost like saying that the Nazi occupation of France was enthusiastically supported by a combination of inside and outside political forces.  In every country, you will always find some domestic groups who will cooperate with foreign intervention and/or occupation, either for selfish or ideological reasons, but this does nothing to legitimize the foreign intervention or occupation, in fact all that it does is to delegitimize the collaborators.

2.  I was very actively involved in Amnesty International during the last five or six years of the Shah's regime, and followed Iranian events fairly closely during all that time.  I don't recall any of the improvements in prison conditions or in the use of torture in Iran that the book mentions during any of that time and in fact my impression of those years is that the flow of new Iranian cases remained fairly constant throughout.  I'm not saying none of that happened, only that if there was any movement in that direction, it sure didn't make any waves and wasn't detectable on casual examination.

And finally, a little off-topic, if anyone is interested in reading a young middle-class girl's autobiographic account of growing up in a non-religious family under the Islamic Revolution in the form of a graphic (cartoon) non-fiction work, I highly recommend an absolutely brilliant book, Marjane Satrapi's Persepolis, drawn and written by the author, now published in expanded form as The Complete Persepolis.  It starts in elementary school and proceeds through the years of the Iran-Iraq war and getting out of Iran to pursue an education in Europe.  It was almost impossible to put down.

[Plane]

1.  The comment that the Mossadegh government was overthrown by a combination of internal and external forces is very misleading.  The impetus for the overthrow was directly related to Mossadegh's nationalization of the Anglo-Persian Oil Co.  That internal Iranian groups were utilized is standard operating procedure in any foreign-led coup - - as for example, in the CIA's overthrow of Chile's democratically elected Allende government or Guatemala's democratically elected Arbenz government, or in the CIA's failed efforts to overthrow the revolutionary Cuban and democratically elected Venezuelan governments.  It is almost like saying that the Nazi occupation of France was enthusiastically supported by a combination of inside and outside political forces.  In every country, you will always find some domestic groups who will cooperate with foreign intervention and/or occupation, either for selfish or ideological reasons, but this does nothing to legitimize the foreign intervention or occupation, in fact all that it does is to delegitimize the collaborators.

France had a lot of collaborators, but under the threat level that they had this is expected.

Doesn't the internal division of a country make it vulnerable to coup?

One of your examples was Cuba , where several US supported coup attempts have died aborning. Is Cuba better off with most of its dissidents being expatriots sending money home to their grandparents ? If all of those people had to stay in Cuba there might have been a successfull coup by now.

[Michael Tee]

<<America is a huge country with better conditions than any other country in the world. >>

Sorry, but that is just not true.  But it is typical of the limited and parochial world-view that many Americans have.


<<I wonder how much our applications for permanent residency have fallen with all this "hate America" crap?>>

Somewhere I read that France, and possibly other countries, attracts more permanant residence applications than the U.S.A.   I stand to be corrected, but in my personal view, as great as it would be to live permanently in either Manhattan or South Florida, living permanently in Paris or the South of France would be even better.

<<In fact, I've to several in my lifetime who have been from all over the globe from the '80's til now who have told me if I ever go overseas, tell everyone who asks that you are Canadian.>>

That's certainly been our experience, in fact, as we are almost always mistaken at first for Americans, we've seen numerous instances where cold, even downright rude treatment instantly turned into smiles and apologies when the person or persons involved realized we were Canadians.  This kind of anti-Americanism, to be fair, goes back many decades and I can't really say that I've noticed any increase in it over the years.  On our last trip to France, a few years ago, we even encountered someone who went out of his way, completely unasked, to be helpful, and explained that he just wanted Americans to know that lots of French people really liked them.  But that was a first, and definitely an exception.  In this case, we didn't have the heart to tell him that he had just helped out three Canadians.

<<I think that we are seen in some ways as a rogue nation who has too much power and everyone is more than willing to let us sink like a stone just to teach us some manners. >>

It is definitely going to affect your balance-of-payment problems.  You'd have to be blind not to see that.  Ill will translates into (a) reluctance to buy the brand and development of interest in competing brands and (b) a more difficult road for foreign leaders who want to exercise pro-American policies against increasing domestic opposition.  I think it's extremely foolish and short-sighted to adopt a "who cares?" attitude in reaction to rapidly-declining goodwill abroad.  It will INEVITABLY bite you in the ass.

[Michael Tee]

<<France had a lot of collaborators, but under the threat level that they had this is expected.>>

The collaborators mostly came from pre-war anti-semitic and pro-fascist movements like Action Francaise and the right-wing bourgeoisie.  Very few of the collaborators saw a threat in Germany, they saw it as their salvation.

<<Doesn't the internal division of a country make it vulnerable to coup?>>

Of course.  So?  What country doesn't have its internal divisions?

<<One of your examples was Cuba , where several US supported coup attempts have died aborning. Is Cuba better off with most of its dissidents being expatriots sending money home to their grandparents ? >>

It's better off without those gusanos around.

<<If all of those people had to stay in Cuba there might have been a successfull coup by now.>>

You have really overestimated their importance.  Most of them are economic refugees, not fleeing poverty but seeking wealth.  These are absolutely the worst kind of human beings imaginable, greed-driven and selfish parasites in search of an environment which will provide the biggest rewards for their parasitism, and they found it.  They would rather hunt for Rolexes in the U.S.A. than for a bullet in the brain in Cuba.

[Amianthus]

Before they build more nuclear plants, they need to send someone over to France and learn how to do it.

Areva has offices in the US already. I have a friend that works for them.

We have too many Montgomery Burnses and Homer Simpsons here on this side of the ocean.

Actually, France has had as many nuclear incidents as the US, possibly more.

[Knutey]

You have really overestimated their importance.  Most of them are economic refugees, not fleeing poverty but seeking wealth.  These are absolutely the worst kind of human beings imaginable, greed-driven and selfish parasites in search of an environment which will provide the biggest rewards for their parasitism, and they found it.  They would rather hunt for Rolexes in the U.S.A. than for a bullet in the brain in Cuba.
 .
Once again Bravo . These brigands are characterized by the Mariel lift in which Castro hoisted his criminals on US

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariel_boatlift

[richpo64]

>>I can't think of one person I've ever met in my whole life who was from another country and came here who has told me that people in other countries just love the hell out of America and think we are the bee's knees.  Not one.<<

I've met hundreds who appreciate America and think the world of it's people. The week in Ireland my wife and I spent was full of wonderful parties and intellectual discussion with people who love America and support her. Every Canadian I've ever worked for or with has nothing but positive things to say about America. If you spend time at the beach you're bound to meet people from other countries and invariable we get along famously. Now that isn't to say people always agree with American foreign policy but they never describe us as evil like some of our own citizens do. That always amazes people from other countries how certain deluded Americans can hate their own country so much. I just tell them it's one of the great things about America. You can tell the most vile lies about your country and we all just kind of shrug it off and consider the source.

I know we're respected around the world. Especially by Eastern European countries who know what it's like to live under Communist/Socialist regimes. They marvel at Americans who actually think socialism is a good thing. "Weren't they paying attention?" They ask. I guess not. They're to busy watching American Idol and hating people who work harder than them.

[sirs]

And let's add here that it wasn't about the gross misrepresentation effort of foreigners singing the praises that the U.S. is all "bees knees", compared to everyone else being some gulag, or that Some Government is more left than the U.S. (I think nearly every government is more left that the U.S.).  Or that there aren't alot of Anti-american folk out there, that rail against the U.S., 24/7.  We have some prime examples of that right here in the saloon 

The issue has always been that despite these declarations that the U.S. is not respected by the rest of the world, that claim is consistently refuted, by these various foreign countries who, since 911 and this administration, have largely been electing American Friendly leaders & governments, who didn't run on an Anti American platform, and instead ran on a more hard line Anti-terrorist platform, with legislative efforts taken that tend to mirror what this country has done post 911.  Spain being the notable exception, of course

HARDLY a disrespecting "by the world".  In fact, one could argue quite the contrary

[Cynthia]

Jealousy breeds contempt.  It is really just another predictable life lesson.   America is a huge country with better conditions than any other country in the world.  As the world got smaller and more people got the opportunity to come visit the US on vaca or immigrate other countries got jealous.   Drop a camera anywhere even in the most remote jungles and you will find western clothing or some American relics... buy a coke anywhere.   Countries that do not accept our ideologies are threatened and thus the propaganda begins.

I wonder how much our applications for permanent residency have fallen with all this "hate America" crap?

Spot on, Cro!

[Michael Tee]

<<I've met hundreds who appreciate America and think the world of it's people. The week in Ireland my wife and I spent was full of wonderful parties and intellectual discussion with people who love America and support her. Every Canadian I've ever worked for or with has nothing but positive things to say about America. If you spend time at the beach you're bound to meet people from other countries and invariable we get along famously. Now that isn't to say people always agree with American foreign policy but they never describe us as evil like some of our own citizens do. >>

I don't think loss of respect for America translates into people-to-people hostility, although as surrogate Americans, we've encountered that a few times as well.  Most people are polite and in particular would never insult other guests at a private party.  The people you meet in social situations are not likely to be the same ones that take part in mass demonstrations shouting "Marg Bar Amerika."  Next time you're meeting foreigners, just ask them whether they've been in any anti-American demonstrations.  Then look up the dates of the last three such demonstrations in that city or country and how big the crowds were.

<<That always amazes people from other countries how certain deluded Americans can hate their own country so much. I just tell them it's one of the great things about America. You can tell the most vile lies about your country and we all just kind of shrug it off and consider the source.>>

The criticism is largely valid and well-deserved.  You are obviously encountering a non-random sampling of foreigners who are totally unrepresentative of the country you happen to be visiting at the time.

<<I know we're respected around the world. Especially by Eastern European countries who know what it's like to live under Communist/Socialist regimes. They marvel at Americans who actually think socialism is a good thing. "Weren't they paying attention?" They ask. I guess not. They're to busy watching American Idol and hating people who work harder than them.>>

It's hard to speak in generalizations, as there are plenty of Eastern Europeans who hate America as much as anyone else does, but it's probably safe to say that Eastern Europeans are America's biggest fans.    70 years ago, it was probably safe to say that a lot of them were Hitler's biggest fans, which is what led to their domination by the Soviets in the first place.  Their political opinions never particularly impressed me, but if you want an earful, next time you discuss politics with one of them, ask them what they really think about the Jews and why the U.S. supports Israel.  Act real dumb when you ask the question and don't appear shocked by anything they say or you'll never hear the end of their answer.

[Cynthia]

I read the link that Cindy posted and generally found it factual and informative.  It's also a good summary of 20th Century Iranian history.  I have a number of Iranian associates and I'm interested in their culture and history.  The Iranians I know, however, are all refugees from the Islamic Revolution and therefore have a very strong pro-Shah, anti-Islamic-Revolution bias.  I would say in general that if you meet any Iranian living in the West, that is generally going to be his or her position, almost as a matter of definition.

Two specific comments about points raised in the book:
1.  The comment that the Mossadegh government was overthrown by a combination of internal and external forces is very misleading.  The impetus for the overthrow was directly related to Mossadegh's nationalization of the Anglo-Persian Oil Co.  That internal Iranian groups were utilized is standard operating procedure in any foreign-led coup - - as for example, in the CIA's overthrow of Chile's democratically elected Allende government or Guatemala's democratically elected Arbenz government, or in the CIA's failed efforts to overthrow the revolutionary Cuban and democratically elected Venezuelan governments.  It is almost like saying that the Nazi occupation of France was enthusiastically supported by a combination of inside and outside political forces.  In every country, you will always find some domestic groups who will cooperate with foreign intervention and/or occupation, either for selfish or ideological reasons, but this does nothing to legitimize the foreign intervention or occupation, in fact all that it does is to delegitimize the collaborators.

2.  I was very actively involved in Amnesty International during the last five or six years of the Shah's regime, and followed Iranian events fairly closely during all that time.  I don't recall any of the improvements in prison conditions or in the use of torture in Iran that the book mentions during any of that time and in fact my impression of those years is that the flow of new Iranian cases remained fairly constant throughout.  I'm not saying none of that happened, only that if there was any movement in that direction, it sure didn't make any waves and wasn't detectable on casual examination.

And finally, a little off-topic, if anyone is interested in reading a young middle-class girl's autobiographic account of growing up in a non-religious family under the Islamic Revolution in the form of a graphic (cartoon) non-fiction work, I highly recommend an absolutely brilliant book, Marjane Satrapi's Persepolis, drawn and written by the author, now published in expanded form as The Complete Persepolis.  It starts in elementary school and proceeds through the years of the Iran-Iraq war and getting out of Iran to pursue an education in Europe.  It was almost impossible to put down.

Good feedback, Mtee.

There were, however, hundreds of individuals murdered just because they were military personel;  under the Shah's regime. So, improving on any society just because there is a sudden revolution....doesn't always  dictate such improvements on any level or stage....