Author Topic: Our Mutual Joy  (Read 29255 times)

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sirs

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Re: Our Mutual Joy
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2008, 07:37:50 PM »
But we're not talking about the church, we're talking about a legal recognition by the state.  Churches frown on anything not marriage, but that's the compromise.  Marriage will exist within and ONLY within the realm of the church and religious bodies.  Any state sanctioning will be referred to as something other than a marriage, including that between a man & a woman

I'm actually willing to make that compromise
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

fatman

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Re: Our Mutual Joy
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2008, 10:27:36 PM »
Here's another compromise effort (don't expect any coming from the other side of the issue)

REMOVE marriage from any and all government.  Make all legal unions, as recognized by the state, a Civil Union, be it man/woman, man/man, or woman/woman

Let "Marriage" exist only in religious services & Churches

Who's game?

Me.  If I want to be "married", then I have the option of finding a church that will confer that on me through their theology.  Yours is a sensible compromise and is nearly identical to the one BT and Ami bring up.

sirs

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Re: Our Mutual Joy
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2008, 10:48:22 PM »
Thanks Fat.  I try to be.  Do you think you might be able to jog a even an ounce of a compromise effort on those from the other end of my side, who apparently have no intention of compromising on anything?  Xo perhaps?  Prince, even?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Cynthia

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Re: Our Mutual Joy
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2008, 11:27:36 PM »
Here's another compromise effort (don't expect any coming from the other side of the issue)

REMOVE marriage from any and all government.  Make all legal unions, as recognized by the state, a Civil Union, be it man/woman, man/man, or woman/woman

Let "Marriage" exist only in religious services & Churches

Who's game?

I think that is a wonderful idea, actually.

Jesus never said that loving one another must be recognized by any sort of Governmental Bridal Shower.

I'm game.

The_Professor

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Re: Our Mutual Joy
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2008, 02:58:53 PM »
Here's the rebuttal to the original article:
Newsweek Argues the Religious Case for Gay Marriage
Albert Mohler
President, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary

December 10, 2008

Newsweek magazine, one of the most influential news magazines in America, has decided to come out for same-sex marriage in a big way, and to do so by means of a biblical and theological argument.  In its cover story for this week, "The Religious Case for Gay Marriage," Newsweek religion editor Lisa Miller offers a revisionist argument for the acceptance of same-sex marriage.  It is fair to say that Newsweek has gone for broke on this question.

Miller begins with a lengthy dismissal of the Bible's relevance to the question of marriage in the first place.  "Let's try for a minute to take the religious conservatives at their word and define marriage as the Bible does," Miller suggests.  If so, she argues that readers will find a confusion of polygamy, strange marital practices, and worse.

She concludes:  "Would any contemporary heterosexual married couple—who likely woke up on their wedding day harboring some optimistic and newfangled ideas about gender equality and romantic love—turn to the Bible as a how-to script?"  She answers, "Of course not, yet the religious opponents of gay marriage would have it be so."

Now, wait just a minute. Miller's broadside attack on the biblical teachings on marriage goes to the heart of what will appear as her argument for same-sex marriage.  She argues that, in the Old Testament, "examples of what social conservatives call 'the traditional family' are scarcely to be found."  This is true, of course, if what you mean by 'traditional family' is the picture of America in the 1950s.  The Old Testament notion of the family starts with the idea that the family is the carrier of covenant promises, and this family is defined, from the onset, as a transgenerational extended family of kin and kindred.

But, at the center of this extended family stands the institution of marriage as the most basic human model of covenantal love and commitment.  And this notion of marriage, deeply rooted in its procreative purpose, is unambiguously heterosexual.

As for the New Testament, "Ozzie and Harriet are nowhere" to be found.  Miller argues that both Jesus and Paul were unmarried (emphatically true) and that Jesus "preached a radical kind of family, a caring community of believers, whose bond in God superseded all blood ties."  Jesus clearly did call for a commitment to the Gospel and to discipleship that transcended family commitments.  Given the Jewish emphasis on family loyalty and commitment, this did represent a decisive break.

But Miller also claims that "while the Bible and Jesus say many important things about love and family, neither explicitly defines marriage as between one man and one woman."  This is just patently untrue.  Genesis 2:24-25 certainly reveals marriage to be, by the Creator's intention, a union of one man and one woman.  To offer just one example from the teaching of Jesus, Matthew 19:1-8 makes absolutely no sense unless marriage "between one man and one woman" is understood as normative.

As for Paul, he did indeed instruct the Corinthians that the unmarried state was advantageous for the spread of the Gospel.  His concern in 1 Corinthians 7 is not to elevate singleness as a lifestyle, but to encourage as many as are able to give themselves totally to an unencumbered Gospel ministry.  But, in Corinth and throughout the New Testament church, the vast majority of Christians were married.  Paul will himself assume this when he writes the "household codes" included in other New Testament letters.

The real issue is not marriage, Miller suggests, but opposition to homosexuality.  Surprisingly, Miller argues that this prejudice against same-sex relations is really about opposition to sex between men.  She cites the Anchor Bible Dictionary as stating that "nowhere in the Bible do its authors refer to sex between women."  She would have done better to look to the Bible itself, where in Romans 1:26-27 Paul writes:  "For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error."

Again, this passage makes absolutely no sense unless it refers very straightforwardly to same-sex relations among both men and women -- with the women mentioned first.

Miller dismisses the Levitical condemnations of homosexuality as useless because "our modern understanding of the world has surpassed its prescriptions."  But she saves her most creative dismissal for the Apostle Paul.  Paul, she concedes, "was tough on homosexuality."  Nevertheless, she takes encouragement from the fact that "progressive scholars" have found a way to re-interpret the Pauline passages to refer only to homosexual violence and promiscuity.

In this light she cites author Neil Elliott and his book, The Arrogance of Nations.  Elliott, like other "progressive scholars," suggests that the modern notion of sexual orientation is simply missing from the biblical worldview, and thus the biblical authors are not really talking about what we know as homosexuality at all.  "Paul is not talking about what we call homosexuality at all," as Miller quotes Elliott.

Of course, no honest reader of the biblical text will share this simplistic and backward conclusion.  Furthermore, to accept this argument is to assume that the Christian church has misunderstood the Bible from its very birth -- and that we are now dependent upon contemporary "progressive scholars" to tell us what Christians throughout the centuries have missed.

Tellingly, Miller herself seems to lose confidence in this line of argument, explaining that "Paul argued more strenuously against divorce—and at least half of the Christians in America disregard that teaching."  In other words, when the argument is failing, change the subject and just declare victory.  "Religious objections to gay marriage are rooted not in the Bible at all, then, but in custom and tradition," Miller simply asserts -- apparently asking her readers to forget everything they have just read.

Miller picks her sources carefully.  She cites Neil Elliott but never balances his argument with credible arguments from another scholar, such as Robert Gagnon of Pittsburgh Theological Seminary [See his response to Elliott here].  Her scholarly sources are chosen so that they all offer an uncorrected affirmation of her argument.  The deck is decisively stacked.

She then moves to the claim that sexual orientation is "exactly the same thing" as skin color when it comes to discrimination.  As recent events have suggested, this claim is not seen as credible by many who have suffered discrimination on the basis of skin color.

As always, the bottom line is biblical authority.  Lisa Miller does not mince words.  "Biblical literalists will disagree," she allows, "but the Bible is a living document, powerful for more than 2,000 years because its truths speak to us even as we change through history."  This argument means, of course, that we get to decide which truths are and are not binding on us as "we change through history."

"A mature view of scriptural authority requires us, as we have in the past, to move beyond literalism," she asserts.  "The Bible was written for a world so unlike our own, it's impossible to apply its rules, at face value, to ours."

All this comes together when Miller writes, "We cannot look to the Bible as a marriage manual, but we can read it for universal truths as we struggle toward a more just future."  At this point the authority of the Bible is reduced to whatever "universal truths" we can distill from its (supposed) horrifyingly backward and oppressive texts.

Even as she attempts to make her "religious case" for gay marriage, Miller has to acknowledge that "very few Jewish or Christian denominations do officially endorse gay marriage, even in the states where it is legal."  Her argument now grinds to a conclusion with her hope that this will change.  But -- and this is a crucial point -- if her argument had adequate traction, she wouldn't have to make it.  It is not a thin extreme of fundamentalist Christians who stand opposed to same-sex marriage -- it is the vast majority of Christian churches and denominations worldwide.

Disappointingly, Newsweek editor Jon Meacham offers an editorial note that broadens Newsweek's responsibility for this atrocity of an article and reveals even more of the agenda:  "No matter what one thinks about gay rights—for, against or somewhere in between —this conservative resort to biblical authority is the worst kind of fundamentalism," Meacham writes.  "Given the history of the making of the Scriptures and the millennia of critical attention scholars and others have given to the stories and injunctions that come to us in the Hebrew Bible and the Christian New Testament, to argue that something is so because it is in the Bible is more than intellectually bankrupt—it is unserious, and unworthy of the great Judeo-Christian tradition."

Well, that statement sets the issue clearly before us.  He insists that "to argue that something is so because it is in the Bible is more than intellectually bankrupt."  No serious student of the Bible can deny the challenge of responsible biblical interpretation, but the purpose of legitimate biblical interpretation is to determine, as faithfully as possible, what the Bible actually teaches -- and then to accept, teach, apply, and obey.

The national news media are collectively embarrassed by the passage of Proposition 8 in California.  Gay rights activists are publicly calling on the mainstream media to offer support for gay marriage, arguing that the media let them down in November.  It appears that Newsweek intends to do its part to press for same-sex marriage.  Many observers believe that the main obstacle to this agenda is a resolute opposition grounded in Christian conviction.  Newsweek clearly intends to reduce that opposition.

Newsweek could have offered its readers a careful and balanced review of the crucial issues related to this question.  It chose another path -- and published this cover story.  The magazine's readers and this controversial issue deserved better.

***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Our Mutual Joy
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2008, 03:10:51 PM »
That is only a rebuttal if one assumes that the Bible is the ultimate authority on everything. Which may be true for Christianity, but NOT for a secular state, such as the one we live in.

Again, every religion can define marriage as it wishes, but just as a  non-Christian government can refuse the notion that blood can be mystically turned into wine and bread into huan flesh, it has no obligation to accept the Biblical definition of marriage.

A civil union arrangement would be fine with me. My point is that it is not fine with the clowns that passed Prop 8 and the latest anti-gay bill in Florida, and they seem to have declared themselves the authority here.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Our Mutual Joy
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2008, 07:17:46 PM »
That is only a rebuttal if one assumes that the Bible is the ultimate authority on everything. Which may be true for Christianity, but NOT for a secular state, such as the one we live in.

Again, every religion can define marriage as it wishes, but just as a  non-Christian government can refuse the notion that blood can be mystically turned into wine and bread into huan flesh, it has no obligation to accept the Biblical definition of marriage.

A civil union arrangement would be fine with me. My point is that it is not fine with the clowns that passed Prop 8 and the latest anti-gay bill in Florida, and they seem to have declared themselves the authority here.

I think that the Newsweek effort to find a scriptural basis for supporting Homosexual Marrage is successfully rebutted.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Our Mutual Joy
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2008, 08:35:42 AM »
You could easily argue that there is a stronger scriptural basis for keeping the kosher than not keeping it as well.
Public stonings are recommended for many infractions in several parts of the Bible, and Jesus only speaks against stoning once. The Bible is a seriously flawed assortment of views, and not alid for building a religion on, let alone a government.

Anyway, a scriptural basis for homosexual marriage is irrelevant in a secular country. And this is a secular country.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Our Mutual Joy
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2008, 05:26:51 PM »
You could easily argue that there is a stronger scriptural basis for keeping the kosher than not keeping it as well.
Public stonings are recommended for many infractions in several parts of the Bible, and Jesus only speaks against stoning once. The Bible is a seriously flawed assortment of views, and not alid for building a religion on, let alone a government.

Anyway, a scriptural basis for homosexual marriage is irrelevant in a secular country. And this is a secular country.

So why does Newsweek go to all the effort it did to cobble up a scriptural basis for Homosexual marrage?


The Scriptures are uniformly against Homosexual acts , Homosexual marrage isn't homosexuality lite or homosexuality in a Christian manner. What got Newsweek busy combing through scriptures and inventing an argument?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Our Mutual Joy
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2008, 11:17:42 PM »
So why does Newsweek go to all the effort it did to cobble up a scriptural basis for Homosexual marrage?

===============
Yo need to ask Newsweek about that.


The Scriptures are uniformly against Homosexual acts , Homosexual marrage isn't homosexuality lite or homosexuality in a Christian manner. What got Newsweek busy combing through scriptures and inventing an argument?

The Scriptures are uniformly against eating shellfish, and the kind of haircut you have right now, and wearing fabric made of more than one single fiber as well as homosexuality. The Scriptures are full of weird stuff, most of what you don't believe in of follow, but somehow you are obsessed about a civil government performing a civil wedding for people who do not follow your silly confusing and ancient scriptures.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Our Mutual Joy
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2008, 11:37:41 PM »
So why does Newsweek go to all the effort it did to cobble up a scriptural basis for Homosexual marrage?

===============
Yo need to ask Newsweek about that.


The Scriptures are uniformly against Homosexual acts , Homosexual marrage isn't homosexuality lite or homosexuality in a Christian manner. What got Newsweek busy combing through scriptures and inventing an argument?

The Scriptures are uniformly against eating shellfish, and the kind of haircut you have right now, and wearing fabric made of more than one single fiber as well as homosexuality. The Scriptures are full of weird stuff, most of what you don't believe in of follow, but somehow you are obsessed about a civil government performing a civil wedding for people who do not follow your silly confusing and ancient scriptures.

I am not more obsessed than Newsweek.

If there is no use in  reference to scripture then we are left with the simple taboo , which for most of human history was fatal to break.

Or the Government , the servant of the people.


The thread begins on Newsweek hashing Scripture toproduce a rosy light for Homosexual Marrage , but why?

Cynthia

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Re: Our Mutual Joy
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2008, 11:47:57 PM »
LOL...oh gezzz....

we are comparing NEWSWEEK to the BIBLE?

Give me a break.


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Our Mutual Joy
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2008, 07:58:20 AM »
If there is no use in  reference to scripture then we are left with the simple taboo , which for most of human history was fatal to break.
=========================
You don't really mean that every society that has not condemned homosexuality has ceased to exist, do you?

At one time, disease, famines and wars made "be fruitful and mutiply" a useful position. Not any longer. We have been too fruitful by far ever since we have managed to cure so many diseases. Jesus had no hope of curing all the lepers: they were all over the place, and of course, he checked out before he cured a fraction of those needing curing. But when was the last time you saw a leper? Modern medicine beats the poo out of Christly miracles. But this creates a problem with overpopulation. So people who do not reproduce (as many gays have done thoroughout history, to serve as a beard to their homosexuality) and not a threat, but a positive boon. We should let them get married. Scripture no longer applies. Much of it is less useful to us than a warranty on a TRS-80 or a Commodore-64.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

The_Professor

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Re: Our Mutual Joy
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2008, 11:05:20 AM »
Newsweek is yet another attempt by the secular media to disenfranchise Christianity/to demean it/to invalidate it.

Part of a trend. It will continue as our Judeo-Christian foundation continues to erode.

Secularism has no basis in morality so watch what will happen over the next few years...
***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

Cynthia

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Re: Our Mutual Joy
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2008, 01:06:26 PM »
Newsweek is yet another attempt by the secular media to disenfranchise Christianity/to demean it/to invalidate it.

Part of a trend. It will continue as our Judeo-Christian foundation continues to erode.

Secularism has no basis in morality so watch what will happen over the next few years...

So true.

I for one, will be keeping the faith.