I wish some of you would get your terms right

[_JS]

Am I American or am I Mexican?

You are an American, or you were. Ethnically you are mixed.

So, I must be either Mexican or an illegal alien, correct?

Well, legally you were a citizen of the Untied States. Then they removed your citizenship and decided that based on your mixed ethnicity you would now be a citizen of a new "country" that you'd never been to.

So you are an illegal alien now, but only because your citizenship was removed.

If I'm not an American or a legal resident, I can see why

So it would not bother you that you were once a legal citizen of the United States, but now are arbitrarily made a citizen of a dubiously invented nation that you've never been to? And now they take your property that has always belonged to your family? That makes sense to you?

And FYI, you do realize that most of the surrounding Arab countries won't allow Palestinians to become citizens of their country either, right?

Yes. Did I not already say that they were not democratic nations?

That's not what America is

So democratic principles can be tossed aside in order to preserve white protestant norms. Would you agree with that statement?

[sirs]

Simple question, Js.  When were the Palestinians legal citizens of Israel, with loyalties to the Israeli way of life and its existance, & for Israel to then revoke said citizenship? That's the only way your analogy can play out, as you're attempting.

[Plane]

Your hyothetical seems a little like the founding of Texas .
The people of Texas whether American or Tecano felt poorly served by the government of Mexico , but their successfull rebellion wound up being a greater benefit for the Americans .

True democracy is a lot like two wolves and a sheep voteing on what will be for dinner.


Israeli and American Democracy has a lot of departure from pure democracy , these departures either are ment to preserve the state or protect minoritys.

A state that isn't intrested in preserveing the state isn't going to last long , the protection of minoritys seems like a good idea but might not be necessacery.

[_JS]

Simple question, Js.  When were the Palestinians legal citizens of Israel, with loyalties to the Israeli way of life and its existance, & for Israel to then revoke said citizenship?

There are thousands of Palestinians who have legal citizenship in Israel Sirs, as well as thousands who once had legal citizenship and were arbitrarily assigned to the West Bank - some of whom had never lived there. The case in point, for which I used as a reference for your scenario Sirs was that of Said Rhateb who is considered an illegal alien in the home in which he was born and grew up in. He has to pay extra property taxes to Jerusalem's city council for a house that technically does not belong to him. His children were removed from a quality school in Jerusalem to an underfunded school in the West Bank - all because the Israeli Government "reclassified" him.

The situation is very similar to South Africa during the apartheid era. In fact, it is so similar that Henrik Verwoerd, the architect of apartheid in South Africa once commented that, "Israel, like South Africa, is an apartheid state." There are even Jews from South Africa who have lived in both societies, even fought for Israel and against apartheid, who are ashamed of the similarity.

So I ask again. Is Israel a fair democratic nation? Why do you go through such great lengths to defend it? Would you defend South Africa with equal vigor?

[_JS]

If these palestinian/mexicans were simply absorbed, their allegience and devotion would not be towards Israel or America.  At the point where there's a majority of such folks, the literal foundation of that country would irreparably be changed, as they would make the decisions for what the country is to become.  Now, you could argue, "if that's the will of the people....?".  I would argue that I'm referencing the culture of the country, the founding documents, what it means to be American/Israeli, not some mish mash of every culture, with no sense of country, outside the one you came from.  That's not what America is, now for that matter, Israel either.

Are you suggesting that Israel and America are both monocultural countries?

Was that what South Africa was doing, protecting their culture? 

[sirs]

There are thousands of Palestinians who have legal citizenship in Israel Sirs, as well as thousands who once had legal citizenship and were arbitrarily assigned to the West Bank - some of whom had never lived there

That didn't quite answer my question.  I'll ask again..When were the Palestinians legal citizens of Israel, with loyalties to the Israeli way of life and its existance, with said citizenship abrubtly abolished?  If memory serves me right, the UN resanctioned the area that Israel occupies, with Israelis being the "legal citizens" of Israel.  Those in the West Bank & Gaza were not part of Israel, though perhaps some were given citizenship via whatever immigration laws were in place.  Then, by defensive measures, Israel was required to take over those lands to better defend itself from its Arab neighbors.  Again, not anything remotely analgus to Israel giving citizenship to Palestinians, and then callously revoking it.  The point remains that those that made up the legal citizenry of Israel were those who were dedicated to supporting Israel.  Just as it is in America.  Or at least it used to be that way

Is Israel a fair democratic nation?

Asked and answered already.  Yes, if not more so than America is

[_JS]

When were the Palestinians legal citizens of Israel, with loyalties to the Israeli way of life and its existance, with said citizenship abrubtly abolished?

1992 in the case of Sait Rhateb. Israel "reclassifies" some of her citizens often. Just as South Africa did with the homeland systems set up in the mid to late 1970's. Israel annexed the West Bank and all of Jerusalem, then took the sections they wanted for themselves, then wanted nothing to do with the populations they annexed.

So, for you it is perfectly acceptable that someone pays a higher tax simply because of their heritage? It is OK with you that individuals are "reclassified" arbitrarily on occasion and their rights change upon reclassification?

Israel destroys people's homes - literally. Moreover, there are beautiful state-owned suburbs where only Jews are allowed to live (Katzir is a good example) while Arab Muslims and Christians live in run-down slums. 80% of the poorest towns in Israel are populated by non-Jews (note this does not include the West Bank or Gaza). Less than 4% of the Government employees are Arabs, though they make up 16-18% of the total population.

Mayor Sandrov of Katzir: "It's the same in Bosnia, Serbia, the United States and Africa -- wherever there is mixing there are problems"

So I'll ask you:

Are these examples of a democratic nation? Do you consider South Africa to have been a democratic nation during apartheid?

Also I am waiting for answers to these questions:

Are you suggesting that Israel and America are both monocultural countries?

Was that what South Africa was doing, protecting their culture?

 

[sirs]

Israel annexed the West Bank and all of Jerusalem, then took the sections they wanted for themselves, then wanted nothing to do with the populations they annexed

AFTER they were attacked, AFTER they defended thesmelves.  I do believe You're making my point that originally these were not Israeli citizens.  The # of Palestinians far out #'d the Israelis.  It's political & national sucide if we were to allow all of Mexic to become American Citizens, as it would be if israel were to give Israeli citizenship to all Palestinians.  I understand how "unfair" it looks, and to a point, you're right.  Show me a country that's perfect in how it deals with its citizenry and immigration, where there is no unfairness in some way

for you it is perfectly acceptable that someone pays a higher tax simply because of their heritage? It is OK with you that individuals are "reclassified" arbitrarily on occasion and their rights change upon reclassification?

See above clarification.  And if they don't like it, they don't have to pay "higher taxes", they can move to another region of the Middle East.  Oh, that's right, no other Arab nations around will allow them to become citizens.  So, who's really screwing the Palestinians, of Arab desent

Israel destroys people's homes - literally.

Better that than innocent civilians blown up in a bus, or in a discotech, or in a crowded shopping area.  Homes can be replaced, lives can't.  And one more time, when the Israelis do it, its in RESPONSE to some terrorist act, such as those above, being perpetrated on them.  You seem to be mixing immigration and response to terrorist/militant attacks to Israel

Are these examples of a democratic nation? Do you consider South Africa to have been a democratic nation during apartheid?

Once again, when has a nation acted perfectly in dealing with immigration?  No, South Africa didn't act very "democratic" during aparthied.  Democracy is more than elections, more than simple majority rules.  It's also paramount to grasp the difference between immigration policy and Defense of one's country

Are you suggesting that Israel and America are both monocultural countries?

No, as Israel doesn't quite have as bad the PC virus as this country has.  Both have very diverse cultures, but both have as their core a devotion and committement to the progress and survival of their respective countries, with citizens having unparalled freedoms, compared to so many other countries.  The U.S.'s overt political correctness is slowly seeing that devotion erode, IMHO, where American Culture means squat, compared to one's own culture, and embracing that, over all else

Was that what South Africa was doing, protecting their culture?

I wouldn't know, I wasn't there.  My guess is no, since they weren't being driven into the Indian Ocean, by military and terrorist forces surrounding them

[_JS]

First, there were over 150,000 Arabs in 1948 who chose not to fight against Israel but live within the new Jewish state. Their numbers have increased since that time. Are you saying it is fair that there are completely Jewish towns? You support segregation?

Oh, that's right, no other Arab nations around will allow them to become citizens.  So, who's really screwing the Palestinians, of Arab desent

Ah, so democratic values are relative? As long as Israel only treats her non-Jewish Arab citizens like third rate non-humans as opposed to the non-democratic countries that surrounds it, then that is OK. I suppose a plantation owner that only beat his slaves with switches instead of a bullwhip would have received a commendation from you as well?

Better that than innocent civilians blown up in a bus, or in a discotech, or in a crowded shopping area.  Homes can be replaced, lives can't.  And one more time, when the Israelis do it, its in RESPONSE to some terrorist act, such as those above, being perpetrated on them.  You seem to be mixing immigration and response to terrorist/militant attacks to Israel

That is exactly one of the South African arguments as well. So a non-Jewish Arab doctor who works in a hospital and treats Jewish patients is not allowed to live in a Jewish suburb of Tel Aviv. How does that "fight terrorism?" (And yes that is a true story)

Once again, when has a nation acted perfectly in dealing with immigration?  No, South Africa didn't act very "democratic" during aparthied.  Democracy is more than elections, more than simple majority rules.  It's also paramount to grasp the difference between immigration policy and Defense of one's country

So you are defending South Africa?

Both have very diverse cultures, but both have as their core a devotion and committement to the progress and survival of their respective countries, with citizens having unparalled freedoms, compared to so many other countries.  The U.S.'s overt political correctness is slowly seeing that devotion erode, IMHO, where American Culture means squat, compared to one's own culture, and embracing that, over all else

Ah, the political correctness bogeyman appears again. What is "American Culture?" If there is unparalleled freedom in America, why should anyone have to follow a single culture? The Jewish people come from very diverse backgrounds including Eastern Europe, Western Europe, Palestine, Africa, America, and other regions. Moreover, Israel contains Arab Christians, Muslims, Bedouins and other peoples (whether they like to admit it or not) - why should they be forced into a single "culture?"

My guess is no, since they weren't being driven into the Indian Ocean, by military and terrorist forces surrounding them

The National Party claimed that they were fighting terrorists, communists, and saving their cultural heritage (Boer and English). They were very concerned with preserving high standards for their people. Television was banned until 1975. Even mild pornography was banned and possession was punished with prison time. Everything in South Africa closed from Saturday afternoon until Monday morning with exceptions for the police and hospitals. Abortion was only legal in cases of rape and if a mother's life was endangered.

I'd say there was a definite attempt to establish a culture that the National Party saw fit to protect.

The question is, is it right to do so? Are democratic ideals so easily exchanged for racial, religious, or other biases?

[The_Professor]

Js, it does indeed appear you have been indoctrinated by the PC Police. Terms such as "alternative lifestyle" or pro-choice are nothing more than prettying-up the disgusting lifestyles they exhibit. I remember when I was an executive for the Federal Government. In a period of four years, the PC terms for those with ancestry from the Pacific rim countries changed six times from oriental to Pacific Asian to Asian Pacific to...

Why bring this up? Because many on the Left (you don't actually disclaim this, do you?) hide behind pretty terminology to make things appear not as they are. It is NOT a sense of "bogeyman". As an example, someone at work recently made a negative comment about the lifeysle of homeosexuals and they were chastized and called, and I quote, "homophobic". Crap term again. PC rules, baby!

So, let's see: whites can be called "white", but blacks cannot be called "black"? Hmm, interesting application here, don't you think.

What many of you simply refuse to believe is that Sirs has a valid point here: You have been captured by the PC police and been indcoctrinated to the point where you actually believe this muck! Too bad, so sad!

A large aprt of the cultur battle is defining terms and the Left has been much better a that than the Right. Too bad...

[_JS]

Interesting theory Professor.

Now show me where I use the terms: "alternative lifestyle," "pro-choice," or "homophobic."

I note that I use the term "black" in this very discussion.

I think if you'd bother to read this debate then you'd see this is not about being politically correct or not. This is about whether or not a nation such as South Africa or Israel that practices segregation or apartheid can truly be considered a democratic state.

See, you claim to "say it like it is" but when it comes to blatant racism or discrimination you run and hide behind the skirt of political correctness. I don't give a damn about PC. You tell it like it is all you want and I will as well. No one is holding you back.

Now, is having all Jewish towns appropriate? Was forcing blacks to live in "homelands" in South Africa appropriate?

Is having a single culture defined by the government a democratic notion?

[The_Professor]

You delude yourself, but that is another story altogether. I was bringing up examples of being PC. Do you deny you succumb to the PC "conspiracy"?

To address your other question, how can a nation be a democracy to all, if it is only a demoracy to a few?

[Plane]

    Has there ever been a democratic nation?


    I havent ever heard of one with 100% sufferage.

[sirs]

Are you saying it is fair that there are completely Jewish towns?

Fair?, no.  Their right as a soverign nation?, yes.  Likely necessary?, again yes

so democratic values are relative? As long as Israel only treats her non-Jewish Arab citizens like third rate non-humans as opposed to the non-democratic countries that surrounds it, then that is OK.

I didn't realize that Israel was treating Non Jewish Arabs as pigs.  I seem to recall many having good jobs, access to much of what Isreal produces & sells, the freedom to choose where they want to work, live, and do business, which includes the freedom to go elsewhere.  Last time I checked, Israel had no Palestinian slaves

So a non-Jewish Arab doctor who works in a hospital and treats Jewish patients is not allowed to live in a Jewish suburb of Tel Aviv

See answer to your 1st question

So you are defending South Africa?

Not that I'm aware of

What is "American Culture?"

Given that America is only a baby at a little over 230yrs old, I'd opine that it is the support, belief, devotion that America is a country founded on religious and economic freedom.  A cornicopia of ideas and cultures that can come together, to better enhance what America is, and has always been.  It is indeed a melting pot, but one that when all other cultures have been melted together, it forms the American culture, which includes Americans of all ethnicities & cultures who see America as their home, their country, and their committed support towards its well being & continued growth

The National Party claimed that they were fighting terrorists, communists, and saving their cultural heritage (Boer and English).

"claimed" and reality are many a time not 1 and the same

Are democratic ideals so easily exchanged for racial, religious, or other biases?

I suppose that depends on the survival of that country.  I'd still opine however, that in many respects, Israel is an even greater Democratic country than ours, given the huge amount of political parties involved in the governing process.  If there weren't such an overt Anti-semetic bias within the Palestinian and Arab nations, you might have a point in regards to Israel needing to involve more Palestinians who live in and around Israel to be allowed to take a greater roll in the governing process.

[_JS]

Do you deny you succumb to the PC "conspiracy"?

By all means Professor, explain how I have fallen prey to this brilliant conspiracy.

how can a nation be a democracy to all, if it is only a demoracy to a few?

Do you, Professor, regard Israel as a democratic nation?

Has there ever been a democratic nation? I havent ever heard of one with 100% sufferage.

No one here is claiming 100% suffrage to be a democratic state Plane. Yet, should a specific minority be denied rights based solely on their heritage? Should we claim Israel as a democratic state when it clearly has segregation?

Fair?, no.  Their right as a soverign nation?, yes.

So, you support Israel's segregation based on religion? You still consider that democratic? At least you admit it is unfair.

I seem to recall many having good jobs, access to much of what Isreal produces & sells, the freedom to choose where they want to work, live, and do business, which includes the freedom to go elsewhere.

No, they don't have freedom to choose where they wish to live, nor where they wish to work (considerable areas are segregated). Freedom of movement is also restricted. In other words, your recollection is wrong.

Israel is an even greater Democratic country than ours, given the huge amount of political parties involved in the governing process

You keep saying that as if it were something amazing. It is a parliamentary system Sirs. We could have the same here. Why not argue for it? It is nothing miraculous, it is just not FPTP as we use (well, we use a variant of FPTP, though in Presidential elections we use our own bizarre elitist system). The ability to manipulate Parliamentary politics to favour an outcome is easily documented in history. Giving the Arabs a party is nothing spectacular. Sinn Fein has a party in Northern Ireland as well, it doesn't make segregation and disenfranchisement an impossibility.

If there weren't such an overt Anti-semetic bias within the Palestinian and Arab nations

So what? Other nations have no meaning in Israel proper. Does denying Arabs within Israel rights make them more likely to be good Israeli citizens and have more generous attitudes towards Judaism? These are, after all, descendants of Arabs who did not take up arms against the Israelis in 1948 and instead chose co-existance.

Basically, you are saying segregation and restriction are suitable answers to anti-semitic feelings. Even such non-violent attitudes. I wonder if you'd prescribe the same for the United States.