Robert Kuttner on the Health Care Reform Bill

[Amianthus]

What I meant was that they often don't see the doctor before it's too late.  The system seems to provide them with access to emerg but not with the routine inspection and maintenance visits before the guy needs to be in emerg.  By the time the system lets him see a doctor, what he really needs is an undertaker.

Spoken as someone not familiar with the system he's discussing. Not only are hospitals forbidden from denying services to those who cannot pay, there are numerous free clinics everywhere - even at most hospitals.

The hospital I was at, for example. If my income had been below $44k last year, my treatment would have been entirely free.

[Michael Tee]

<< . . . there are numerous free clinics everywhere - even at most hospitals.>>

I don't know what "numerous" means, but the end result - - an average life-span two and a half years lower than the Canadian life-span, DESPITE paying more than any other nation on earth for health care, 42,000 people dying every year for lack of money or insurance - - must mean that "numerous" is American conservative-speak for "not nearly enough."

I was surfing the net once regarding this issue and came across a blog that I was not able to find again, but it was a woman relating her experience in a doctor's waiting room.  An elderly couple was there ahead of her, the woman obviously infirm, seated, while the man spoke over the counter to the doctor's staff.  They asked for proof of insurance, he didn't have any, they asked for $40 and the guy didn't have that either, and the nurse was telling the guy that the doc couldn't treat the wife if they weren't insured and couldn't pony up the $40.  So the guy put on his coat and was helping the woman into hers when the blogger stepped up to the counter and paid the $40 for the couple.

That was obviously a sad story, even though it was inspiring that the blogger had stepped up to the plate that one time, but it was sad because you just knew there wouldn't be a blogger in every doctor's office and a lot of couples like that one were going without adequate medical care.  Which IMHO is a fucking crime.

I don't buy this "free clinics everywhere" stuff.  Sure there must be some free clinics somewhere, and I'm sure they do a lot of good, but they are obviously not taking up the slack.

[Amianthus]

I don't buy this "free clinics everywhere" stuff.  Sure there must be some free clinics somewhere, and I'm sure they do a lot of good, but they are obviously not taking up the slack.

Pick a spot.

[Kramer]

What I meant was that they often don't see the doctor before it's too late.  The system seems to provide them with access to emerg but not with the routine inspection and maintenance visits before the guy needs to be in emerg.  By the time the system lets him see a doctor, what he really needs is an undertaker.

Spoken as someone not familiar with the system he's discussing. Not only are hospitals forbidden from denying services to those who cannot pay, there are numerous free clinics everywhere - even at most hospitals.

The hospital I was at, for example. If my income had been below $44k last year, my treatment would have been entirely free.

with a little luck Obama will arrange for you to lose your job and then you can get free health care.

[Michael Tee]

<<Pick a spot.>>

Money, Mississippi.

Newport, Kentucky

Even if you find free clinics there, and you probably will, though maybe not in Money (site of the lynching of Emmett Till) my answer is still the same - - I've already acknowledged their existence and the good that they do, but overall they are not solving the problem, as evidenced by the 2.5-year gap in life expectancies between Canada and the USA, and the 42,000 annual preventable deaths due to lack of insurance, insufficient insurance and/or lack of money.

[sirs]

So much of this has already been cleaned up.  We are a free-er society than most, that allows folks to chose actions that could indeed lessen the overall length of their lives.  THEIR CHOICE.  The VAST majority of the uninsured, CHOOSE to be uninsured, are simply between jobs, or do qualify & COULD aquire insurance coverage, but for whatever reason CHOOSE not to.

Again, that FREEDOM thing that always keeps getting in the way

For the 1st time, in this country's existance, the Government is going to tax people, simply because they can

[Amianthus]

Money, Mississippi.

Newport, Kentucky

Red dots and arrows are free clinics.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&q=free+clinic+Money,+Mississippi&ie=UTF8&hq=free+clinic&hnear=Money&z=8

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&q=free+clinic+Newport,+Kentucky&ie=UTF8&hq=free+clinic&hnear=Newport,+KY&z=11

Sirs addressed your second point; as a free society, we allow people to do stupid things that shorten their lifespans. Also, I pointed out earlier that there are plenty of regions within the US where life expectancy exceeds that of Canada (Minnesota, for example), why can't Canada keep up?

[Michael Tee]

<<Sirs addressed your second point; as a free society, we allow people to do stupid things that shorten their lifespans. >>


THAT is exactly what's wrong with you.  If you can write the guy off as "stupid" then you don't have to take care of him when he "fucks up."  NEWSFLASH:  a lot of people DON'T know how to take care of their health.  It doesn't help that the billion-dollar food industry, due to their fucking greed and devotion to the bottom line and "free market" competitive ethics, load their foods with all kinds of unhealthy crap like sodium and trans-fats to increase market share, followed up by billions of dollars spent on advertising and billions more on corrupting the legislature so it won't stop their life-threatening greed.  It doesn't help that business pollutes the air and the water with carcinogenic toxins.   Then people who ought to know better look at the victims and say, well, we aren't responsible for their bad luck/stupidity in looking after themselves badly.  We aren't responsible that they didn't squander the last few pennies they had left from their wage slavery to enrich the billionaires of the health care industry so that they could be "insured" against events which every civilized country accepts as a national responsibility.

We take care of ALL our citizens, because ALL of them have the right to the best health care that our society can afford to provide to everyone regardless of wealth.  We don't write off anyone because of his or her "stupidity" in health habits, as if the effects of stupidity and luck could be distinguished.

<<Also, I pointed out earlier that there are plenty of regions within the US where life expectancy exceeds that of Canada (Minnesota, for example), why can't Canada keep up?>>

Well, if you want to cherry-pick by region, how does Minnesota stack up against the GTA (Greater Toronto Area?)  What's the point of cherry-picking by good, healthy regions?  Why not pick the rural and urban slums?  How does Mississippi stack up against Oakville, Ontario (a wealthy enclave?)  The comparisons are ridiculous.  Basically indicating that the poorer areas of America are second-class citizens, not to be included in the national average because they drag it down.

[Amianthus]

Well, if you want to cherry-pick by region, how does Minnesota stack up against the GTA (Greater Toronto Area?)  What's the point of cherry-picking by good, healthy regions?  Why not pick the rural and urban slums?  How does Mississippi stack up against Oakville, Ontario (a wealthy enclave?)  The comparisons are ridiculous.  Basically indicating that the poorer areas of America are second-class citizens, not to be included in the national average because they drag it down.

Because the US is more ethnically diverse than Canada?

Besides, Minnesota - my example - is mostly rural and Indian reservations. There are only two metro areas, and they're both small by comparison with many other states. Only the Twin Cities break 100,000 in population. There are many parts of Minnesota that have population densities of under 10 per square mile.

[Michael Tee]

Then it must be the water.

[Amianthus]

Then it must be the water.

Yeah, we're proud of our water. Only part of the Mississippi that's clean is the part in Minnesota. And the lakes in the southern part of the state that have been polluted with farm runoff are being cleaned up.

[Christians4LessGvt]

"Basically indicating that the poorer areas of America are second-class citizens,
not to be included in the national average because they drag it down"

No, no, no....thats not true.
It's just stating fact.
You brag about Canadians living longer & pretend it's because of the socialized healthcare.
When really it is just a fact that certain races have more health problems than others.
Lily White Canada has a lot less of the races that affect the US life span averages.
It has nothing to do with "2nd class"
If those populations suddenly were transferred to Canada...
Canada's lifespan average would decline slightly too.
The US lifespan suffers a slight bit, because the US is more diverse than Canada.

[sirs]

<<Sirs addressed your second point; as a free society, we allow people to do stupid things that shorten their lifespans. >>

THAT is exactly what's wrong with you.  If you can write the guy off as "stupid" then you don't have to take care of him when he "fucks up."  NEWSFLASH:  a lot of people DON'T know how to take care of their health. 

And here in lies one of the cornerstornes of difference between those who advocate communism/socialism/fascist agenda, and those who advocate freedom.  Most of us, here in America, and is a foundation within our consitutution & Bill of Rights, believes freedom trumps Government trying to take care of us.  That includes the freedom to make supid mistakes.  That doesn't include manipulating an entire society to be controlled, in order to try and take care of those few folks, who make stupid mistakes

FREEDOM, is THAT IMPORTANT, to us.  And believe me, we will fight for it.  Now, you can keep planting your head in the sand, plead emotional trauma, and be unable to refute anything I say, but your continued silence, in the absence of me not airing not a wiff of the word of "lair" to any of your posts, outside of referencing someone else calling you on yet another of one of your untruths, simply digs your hole that much deeper

[Michael Tee]

CU4, I think what you're missing is that everyone is a citizen with equal rights.  If your government is responsible for a lot of blacks and ours isn't (and BTW, as a per cent of the total, we have about three to four times as many Indians in our population as you do in yours, and they have terrible health stats, due to alcohol and substance abuse, poverty, cultural destruction, isolation, etc.) the issue shouldn't be how well the WHITES are looked after, but how well the population as a whole is looked after.  The health care system isn't working if it only works for one race and not another.

If the blacks are dragging down your averages, so the Indians are dragging down ours, and probably by more than the blacks, and nevertheless, bottom line, our averages beat your averages.  Our system does much, much better for our average citizen than yours does for your average citizen.

And that's not even considering that your system is paying more per capita for health care than any other nation on earth.  How can you pay MORE per capita for each citizen and yet deliver to each a substantially inferior outcome?

Does that not indicate to you that your system is the one that is majorly fucked up and needs the repairs?

[Plane]

Being frozen to death count against the total?

Canada has fewer tropical Diseases than the US , that is a major part of the diffrence.

Are infant deaths counted the same way there as here? In some countrys stillbirths are not counted against the total.

Nevertheless....
If the Canadian system is the cause of all of the diffrence between Canadian Lifespan and US lifespan then the Canadian system is causeing Canadians to live 2% longer and is therfore demonstrably 2% better overall.

  Two percent? Why so much fuss over such a marginal effect?

We could gain more than 5% by all becomeing Mormans , this might sound drastic , but it is less onerous and objectionable than all becomeing Canadians.