The Summer of Love

[_JS]

Of course you wouldn't.  All that sophistry and platitudes on the evils of capitalism.....hey, that's all true.  Anything to the contrary....well, that's just irrelevant, meaningless drivel.

My world of Capitalism and the greatness of freedom is a mighty fine, BTW.  So glad you could be a part of it, and have the freedom to disparage it at will.  It's also what makes this country great

What was meaningless drivel was your post

And just as much drivel has been your soapbox on how evil Capitalism is supposed to be

Not at all, as can be seen by your inability to refute any of it. Note that I never said that capitalism is "evil." You're simply creating a strawman. I merely pointed out several of the flaws and why it will be doomed to the dustbin of history. I passed no value judgment, that is your own doing.

[_JS]

Capitolism is not failing in any respect , except in respects that every alternitive is also failing.

Of course it is and I could easily point out many more.

You and Sirs fall into the trap that you believe your own period of history is the zenith of mankind. You limit your own thinking and therefore force yourselves to defend anything in the here and now (with the added caveats of "it isn't perfect"). Much like the Cobfederate Vice President Alexander Stephens defending the view that blacks are an inferior race as a cornerstone of modern society, you see the here & now as the greatest possible outcome and therefore defended by the Almighty.

But it is a fallacy. Feudalism had the very same reactionary defenders. As did every failed system since. Capitalism is no supreme advancement over any of these, it is merely an extension of mercantilism. Saying, "it is the best we have" is no different from passive acceptance of the status quo. You might as well help Ford build the detention centers and then claim that you had no idea what was going on.

[sirs]

What was meaningless drivel was your post

And just as much drivel has been your soapbox on how evil Capitalism is supposed to be

Not at all, as can be seen by your inability to refute any of it.

Nor mine, as you have been unable to refute any of the goodness & greatness I've referenced, nor refute the massive amounts of aide and $$$$'s we send to other countries and peoples in need.  Nor refute the masssive amounts of charitable contributions, in foods, medicines, equipment, logistics, and again, $$$$ we send to other struggling areas of the globe.  All of which could not have occured with out the Capitalistic economy we run, that put us in such a position to be a giver and not a givee.  No, like Tee, you simply minimize it, if not ignore it.  So, which is it?  We both have valid points, or are we both producing insidious drivel??

Note that I never said that capitalism is "evil." You're simply creating a strawman. I merely pointed out several of the flaws and why it will be doomed to the dustbin of history. I passed no value judgment, that is your own doing.

It sure looks that way (in regards to how evil capitalism is supposed to be), and I've already conceded that capitalism isn't perfect either, nor a perfect system.  Simply the best system under the circumstances of providing the freedom to be the best you can be

[_JS]

Nor mine, as you have been unable to refute any of the goodness & greatness I've referenced, nor refute the massive amounts of aide and $$$$'s we send to other countries and peoples in need.  Nor refute the masssive amounts of charitable contributions, in foods, medicines, equipment, logistics, and again, $$$$ we send to other struggling areas of the globe.  All of which could not have occured with out the Capitalistic economy we run, that put us in such a position to be a giver and not a givee.  No, like Tee, you simply minimize it, if not ignore it.  So, which is it?  We both have valid points, or are we both producing insidious drivel??

I have no reason to, it is not meaningful. Capitalism causes harm and then sends care packages. I don't doubt that at all. We all live under the economic system and I do believe that people are basically good no matter their nation of origin. So yes, Americans do care. But the Capitalist system gives a shit less about the workers, the families, the people. You are comparing apples and oranges. The beloved Ayn Rand, a capitalist prophetess to many, would have told you that altruism doesn't exist and the people you're sending your aid to are just parasites.

It sure looks that way (in regards to how evil capitalism is supposed to be), and I've already conceded that capitalism isn't perfect either, nor a perfect system.  Simply the best system under the circumstances of providing the freedom to be the best you can be

Right. See my post to Plane. No sense being redundant.
[/quote]

[sirs]

Nor mine, as you have been unable to refute any of the goodness & greatness I've referenced, nor refute the massive amounts of aide and $$$$'s we send to other countries and peoples in need.  Nor refute the masssive amounts of charitable contributions, in foods, medicines, equipment, logistics, and again, $$$$ we send to other struggling areas of the globe.  All of which could not have occured with out the Capitalistic economy we run, that put us in such a position to be a giver and not a givee.  No, like Tee, you simply minimize it, if not ignore it.  So, which is it?  We both have valid points, or are we both producing insidious drivel??

I have no reason to, it is not meaningful.

How convenient

Capitalism causes harm and then sends care packages.

And strangely, despite its flaws, is better than any other system out there, both tried and located in some utopian fantasy world

[Plane]

Capitolism is not failing in any respect , except in respects that every alternitive is also failing.

Of course it is and I could easily point out many more.

You and Sirs fall into the trap that you believe your own period of history is the zenith of mankind.

No I don't.

I don't know how you could possibly get such an impression, I look forward to developments in every feild such that Future shock will become supersonic future shock wave, why not ? We are in the cusp of change all of the time it behooves us to lobby for positive changes when that is possible and to cope with negative changes when they are necessacery.

The worlds imagind by Arther C Clark are acheveable , with a lot of work , a little luck and God willing.

We are in a process , but your calling Capitalism a failure flys in the face of all evidence, and I do mean all of it.

Progress happens best in Capitolist a environment , conservation of nature happens best in a democratic and capitolist environment , good treatment of the common man happens best in a democratic , modified capitolist system , where the little guy has enough clout to look after himself a bit , but the moovers and shakers , visionarys and highly productive people are not shackled unneedfully.

Communism has seen its apex , it was a disaster in environmental damage , bad treatment of the common man and corruption of the very powerfull not least was the supression of the creative.

Nostalgia for the ultimate socialist state is reactionary and practicly Ludditeism.

[Xavier_Onassis]

There are no purely capitalist countries, just as there are no entirely Communist ones. Every nation on this planet is a combination of the two, and several have mercantilistic features that do not correspond to either.

[Michael Tee]

Catching up on this thread, it seems the sirs-plane position is that despite "blips" that mar what would otherwise be a perfect record of exemplary conduct, the "good" done by the U.S., primarily in the form of aid packages outshines the little "blips" in the record, leaving the U.S. the greatest country not only on earth today but in all of recorded history. 

I guess where it all starts to fall apart is when one takes a good look at the "blips," the big "blips" being the genocide of the American Indians and slavery, either one of which by itself would permanently disqualify the U.S. from being the greatest anything anywhere.  There are plenty of good countries doing good in the world which were not built on either genocide or slavery.  However, slavery and genocide are but the tip of the iceberg - - we also have to consider the slave trade itself, 100 years of lynch law and Jim Crow, the KKK, the millions killed in the Vietnam War, the half-million massacred in Indonesia with the direct complicity of the CIA, the overthrow of democratically elected governments in Central and South America and the institution of death squads and torture states from Guatemala to Chile, the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iran and the installation of another torture-state there, the Shah and his SAVAK secret police, the murder of Patrice Lumumba, the murder of Che Guevara, the decades-long support of the Duvalier torture-state in Haiti and its counterpart, the Trujillo regime in the DR, and the Batista regime in Cuba and the on-going rape of the Third World (as detailed in the book "Confessions of an Economic Hit-Man.")  "Balanced out" by it "generous" foreign aid contributions the way a mattress "balances" on a bottle of wine, using Dylan's analogy.

I often feel like I was entering some kind of Bizarro World when I encounter the arguments of plane and sirs on the moral superiority of the U.S.A. over the rest of us poor dumb schmucks.  Someplace where you can inflict the most horrific atrocities on your fellow man, torturing and killing millions, burning children alive in the arms of their mothers not once but thousands and hundreds of thousands of times and then "balance" it all out by writing a cheque that basically solves nothing for anybody and claiming moral superiority over the world on the basis of it.

I guess what I really would like to know is do they really think they are fooling ANYBODY with this bizarre BS?  Do they believe it themselves?  (I really think they do.)  Why doesn't the rest of the world believe it then?  Is everyone else really, really stupid?  My own theory is that they are psychologically unready to come to grips with the simple but harsh reality of America's crimes and misdemeanours.  It helps to erect a fictitious "good America" whose grossly exaggerated and otherwise almost mythical "good deeds" overbalance any "blips" like genocide or slavery that are unavoidably and eternally stuck there in the historical record.

[BT]

There are plenty of good countries doing good in the world which were not built on either genocide or slavery.

Like who?

[Michael Tee]

Like Canada, for one.  France.  China.

[BT]

France had slaves. Canada had slaves. China has slaves.

[_JS]

Not convenient at all Sirs. I explained my point well, yet again you do nothing to refute it except to make a one line comment.

And strangely, despite its flaws, is better than any other system out there, both tried and located in some utopian fantasy world

Ah yes, the fallback position of anyone who defends anything in the status quo. Of course the 1840's Southern slaveholder made the same argument. The feudal lords made the same argument. It doesn't stick. It is better because it exists is more crap thrown on the pile.

As for "Utopian fantasy world", I'll wear the label proudly. That's what they call those people who follow that criminal Jew. You know the one who preached loving your neighbor, loving your enemies, feeding the poor, visiting the prisoners. I mean, you can't really do those things in the real world - so it must be a Utopian fantasy, right?

[_JS]

Capitolism is not failing in any respect , except in respects that every alternitive is also failing.

Of course it is and I could easily point out many more.

You and Sirs fall into the trap that you believe your own period of history is the zenith of mankind.

No I don't.

I don't know how you could possibly get such an impression, I look forward to developments in every feild such that Future shock will become supersonic future shock wave, why not ? We are in the cusp of change all of the time it behooves us to lobby for positive changes when that is possible and to cope with negative changes when they are necessacery.

The worlds imagind by Arther C Clark are acheveable , with a lot of work , a little luck and God willing.

We are in a process , but your calling Capitalism a failure flys in the face of all evidence, and I do mean all of it.

Progress happens best in Capitolist a environment , conservation of nature happens best in a democratic and capitolist environment , good treatment of the common man happens best in a democratic , modified capitolist system , where the little guy has enough clout to look after himself a bit , but the moovers and shakers , visionarys and highly productive people are not shackled unneedfully.

Communism has seen its apex , it was a disaster in environmental damage , bad treatment of the common man and corruption of the very powerfull not least was the supression of the creative.

Nostalgia for the ultimate socialist state is reactionary and practicly Ludditeism.

Of course, if what you said was really true then you could refute at least some of it I'd imagine. But you simply toss on insults at the end. This is typical, really.

Good treatment of the "common man?" This coming from someone who claims that class consciousness would be "dangerous" and "very bad." I'll take that with a grain of salt for certain.

[_JS]

I often feel like I was entering some kind of Bizarro World when I encounter the arguments of plane and sirs on the moral superiority of the U.S.A. over the rest of us poor dumb schmucks.  Someplace where you can inflict the most horrific atrocities on your fellow man, torturing and killing millions, burning children alive in the arms of their mothers not once but thousands and hundreds of thousands of times and then "balance" it all out by writing a cheque that basically solves nothing for anybody and claiming moral superiority over the world on the basis of it.

I've struggled to understand this as well. Note that discussing the seedier parts of American history is considered "anti-American" right off the bat. If I speak about the Holocaust, am I anti-German? I think not. As a German (I am both German and American) I realize that there is no such thing as a flawless history. I could use all of the polish in Pleasantville and German history is what it is. I would only do a disservice to Germany and her people by ignoring what took place during the Fascist government. It would only further the disservice to ignore what the Germans did in her African colonies in the 19th and very early 20th centuries.

So why is it such a horrid thing to point out the historical realities of American policies in places like Chile, El Salvador, Guatemala, Indonesia? What is this need for a false sense of perfection in a country whose history is replete with examples of gross injustice and contradiction? What purpose does moral superiority serve if it is built on a house of cards?

I think that Bt asks the wrong question. History should teach us about the past to prepare for the future. It should be more than theories on the past, it should be praxis. Who has learned from their mistakes and who has not?

That is the essence of why capitalism will fail. Look at your democracy right now. You are arguing over "saving marriages" from homosexuals. Yet your very own economic system has created businesses whose sole purpose is to find single women for married men, one of those dot-coms is specifically designed for affluent married men. You want to save marriages? But who is destroying them? Surely not a legal business, legally fulfilling a market demand...

No, it must be the gays.

You fight wars for market expansion, manipulate governments, produce debtor nations...and the best I've heard are "we're not perfect, but we're the best possible."

No, I don't think so.

I think people will see through it eventually, Mike. I think the truth will hit them like a bucket of cold water.

[BT]

My democracy?

It is your democracy too.

Some people say we shouldn't torture because we are better than that.

What crap. We are a violent nation. Always have been. Always will be.

And so what. I don't go around torturing people, no do i go around killing people. So that hair shirt doesn't fit. And I'm definitely not into collective guilt. You want to feel guilty, that's on you.