Author Topic: First Question: "Win," or Something Less?  (Read 2251 times)

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domer

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First Question: "Win," or Something Less?
« on: December 08, 2006, 03:06:15 PM »
Iraq is a problem that truly collapses upon itself. All depends, ultimately, on an indigenous political epiphany that we have less and less control over, if we ever any appreciable control at all. The given wisdom of how to fight an insurgency or guerilla war -- win hearts and minds, thereby draining popular support in its many facets, which all add up to disabling the antagonists to continue -- seems at this juncture to be dead in the water. Is there a wind that can provide the needed energy?

Iraq collapses upon itself for two reasons: the labyrinthine politics, conflicts and hatred, which have been in place since time immemorial, it seems, confound any effort at reconciliation. Further, the US presence, while not letting the situation get any "worse," may actually provoke political instability as a foreign occupier imposes its vision of Iraq's future on a tormented and hateful nation, which we can assume yearns, at least, for a peace that is theirs, if at all in the foreseeable future.

These are fundamental questions, the answers to which, yet untried to the proper degree, seem to point to a regional conference, and -- to spark understanding and healing -- a reciprocal "culture initiative" by the West and the Muslim world to dispel fears, establish common ground and build a framework for discussion and action to relieve conflicts. This is a long range plan, both idealistic and hopeful but certainly not devoid of a firm rational basis.

Whatever else we do to set policy for our role in Iraq in the coming weeks, these two suggestions should be integral.

Beyond that, what do we do? Train and withdraw? Recommit with a larger force and fight to the bloody end? Recognizing that events may already be progressing at a rate beyond our ability to control, we have to ask, as to the first question, isn't this a "stay the course" prescription, which famously hasn't worked to date? Indeed, is there any reasonable expectation that trained Iraqi forces, once we leave, would be up to repelling the onslaught?

The larger force to WIN is John McCain's baby, and, perhaps for that reason, given the amount of respect he seems to command, must be taken seriously. In contemplating this option, one is immediately presented with the problem alluded to above: the American presence may actually exacerbate the situation in significant ways. Even if that problem can be negotiated, there remains the willingness of the American electorate to see more of their own be killed and maimed for a cause even now poorly defined in terms of an acceptable outcome. Win? By pressing to "win," we may actually antagonize the larger Muslim world -- irrevocably? -- thereby exponentially complicating our true struggle with violent, terroristic Muslim radicals, whom we should be trying to isolate rather than drive into their arms the "Arab street."

There is the signal danger, in a situation like this, that too many cooks may spoil the pot. The Iraq Study Group has received such criticism. Then there is the proven danger that a myopic leader wedded to his own ideas can create a disaster.

So, what do we do?

domer

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Re: First Question: "Win," or Something Less?
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2006, 06:06:22 PM »
Isn't anyone interested in the issues raised and suggested in this thread? It is perhaps the most important issue to face us in our lifetimes, and it is at a critical point where open discussion and a drive toward consensus are the orders of the day.

sirs

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Re: First Question: "Win," or Something Less?
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2006, 06:19:28 PM »
Isn't anyone interested in the issues raised and suggested in this thread? It is perhaps the most important issue to face us in our lifetimes, and it is at a critical point where open discussion and a drive toward consensus are the orders of the day.

Would we be able to facilitate such a dialog minus how incompotent Bush is?, minus any claim that he lied us into war?, minus any demand for a war crime investigations up & down the Bush administration?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

domer

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Re: First Question: "Win," or Something Less?
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2006, 06:23:57 PM »
You're barking up the wrong tree with me: I don't feel Bush "lied" and I believe we can responsibly discuss this issue as a common burden regardless of its genesis. Be aware, however, that all methods of applying civil political pressure may have to be brought to bear on Bush should he prove recalcitrant.

BT

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Re: First Question: "Win," or Something Less?
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2006, 07:41:46 PM »
Quote
Be aware, however, that all methods of applying civil political pressure may have to be brought to bear on Bush should he prove recalcitrant.

Not sure you have any bullets left in your gun re: political pressure.

What could the dems do?

Withhold funding?

Withdraw authorization?

How does that play out in the voters minds?








Michael Tee

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Re: First Question: "Win," or Something Less?
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2006, 08:08:50 PM »
Why don't you start by reversing some of the  questions: suppose a Muslim army had invaded the U.S.A. with the express intention of bringing to the benighted population the benefits of Islamic Government, killed six million Americans (proportionately LESS than the number of Iraqis killed by the U.S. invasion,) raped, kidnapped, tortured and murdered any opponents they could get their hands on and tried to get everyone to participate in an election featuring hand-picked pro-Islamic American candidates for a new Islamic American government.

What kind of incentives would YOU propose to get the American people to lay down their arms and support their new Islamic government and how likely do you think they would be to succeed?

domer

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Re: First Question: "Win," or Something Less?
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2006, 08:23:02 PM »
Well, fuck it.

Michael Tee

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Re: First Question: "Win," or Something Less?
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2006, 08:43:32 PM »
TEST

Michael Tee

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Re: First Question: "Win," or Something Less?
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2006, 08:46:52 PM »
domer at 5:05 PM: 
<<Isn't anyone interested in the issues raised and suggested in this thread? It is perhaps the most important issue to face us in our lifetimes, and it is at a critical point where open discussion and a drive toward consensus are the orders of the day.>>

MT
<<[paraphrased] There is no solution - - the whole enterprise is doomed.>>

domer, 7:23 PM
<<Well, fuck it.>>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LOL.  Now he gets it.

Michael Tee

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Re: First Question: "Win," or Something Less?
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2006, 08:50:55 PM »
Sorry, domer, I wasn't laughing at YOU, just at the total bankruptcy of the war effort.  Someone else tried to grapple with your issue today, that was Shelby Steele on the editorial page of The Wall Street Journal, "Our Unceasing Ambivalence."  An amazingly clueless performance I must say.  Like the guy was born yesterday in a cotton patch.

domer

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Re: First Question: "Win," or Something Less?
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2006, 08:55:44 PM »
See my crossing post under "Separating Personal Interest from the Public Good."

Plane

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Re: First Question: "Win," or Something Less?
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2006, 02:36:53 AM »
The key is more personell , it always has been.

But they do not need to all be Americans , every time you blow up a recruiting station for the Iriqui Police you kill fifty potential recruits , there is a large willing force waiting for training.

Lets give them the training they need in bases located outside Iraq where we controll the situation better, and lets do it wholesale .

Then we continue to encourage the winners with raises and further training establishing a system in which an intellegent fellow can become a real scolar if he is a good poloiceman first.Those who do really well should be given scholorships in any subject they choose in reputable insitutions in Europe and the US. A career withthe Police should become a means to become a doctor , lawyer or politician attracting the best sort of people in the first place.

Then hand a lot of this function to The government of Iraq as they become able to handle the load, all of it eventually.